On the topic of "holding" kids down...

[Willow]

A spin off about the use of restraint by untrained caregivers....

I had mentioned in another thread a friend of mine's family was unfortunate enough to experience this first hand and wanted to share more on that. Their story will air tonight along with several others on ABC news (Nightline) with Diane Sawyer at 5:30 (CST). Their names are Anna and Andy and their son Lukas was improperly (and in quite scary fashion) restrained some sort of school services supervisor. The bus company called to let his parents know there was trouble and they were intervening.

As a a bit of background....I've known this family for going on half a dozen years now. They are wonderful people, good, involved, attentive and responsible parents. Their kids are GREAT kids. Lukas is in the 4th grade. He has seizures, ADHD and he's being tested for Austim. He does have related behavior problems but he's by no means ever been any sort of danger to anyone. The bus driver says he was acting out which precipitated the need for intervention.

Anna made it to where the bus was located and came upon her son literally held in a choke hold by the supervisor who was not at all trained to physically restrain a child, much less in that fashion. At that point the supervisor REFUSED TO RELEASE LUKAS despite Anna's begging AND pulling out her cell to record the rest of the incident. Law enforcement was already on the way. The supervisor claims he didn't have him in a head lock the entire time as he proceeded to kick, head butt and spit on him....funny enough Lukas was the only one covered in scratches and bruises....from the manhandling of a grown man. The supervisor didn't have any evidence of all the physical acting out Lukas supposedly inflicted on him. Thankfully Lukas wasn't seriously hurt but if he'd have struggled it easily could have injured if not killed him, especially because the restraint was entirely on his head and neck. Anna kept talking to him to keep him calm.....no idea how she managed it as there is no way I could have kept a level head in that situation.

They will be airing Anna's cell phone video tonight.

The story of the first family due to be discussed is already listed on their website:

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/death-school-parents-protest-dangerous-discipline-autistic-disabled/story?id=17702216#.ULeGAFL4I5E

Unless an adult is trained to put their hands on a child to restrain them they should never do such a thing. Barring there being a safety concern to others around the child it's just completely unnecessary and so sooooo dangerous.

The reasons a lot of these caregivers/teachers/supervisors are giving for going to such extremes are LUDICROUS. The child in the above story died because he was restrained after he wouldn't leave the gym. How ridiculously insane is that....... He wasn't hurting anyone, yet he was literally smothered to death just the same.


I am a strict disciplinarian. I've worked with loads of kids, many of them pretty rough around the edges and some having moments where they've been completely out of control. Still, I've never gone so far so to put my hands on them to restrain them.

Being a naughty kid shouldn't be a death sentence.


If this prompts even one provider to reconsider the way they may be handling the kids in their care it will make what kids like Lukas have gone through, all of the kids who have been injured and even died, have purpose. Their suffering and deaths, not be in vain.

[Country Kids]

This is a different type of restraining but I guess in my state they are now putting in Isolation Cells for the kids. I think they were even padded!

My times have changed since I was in school.

[cheerfuldom]

i am glad you posted of this story to air. i will try and watch. caregivers of any sort, especially daycare and school employees, should have policies in place and clear instructions on how to handle a variety of behaviors. there are so many facilities though that offer little to no training and hire inexperienced people.

[Heidi]

Not to hi-jack, but I would so much love to have some training in what I SHOULD do in certain situations!

We get a big list of what we shouldn't do-spanking, humiliating, time-outs, restraining, etc. What we don't get is much training on what we should do.

Redirect...ok...got it

If that doesn't work, you're out of luck. I've had kids who hit and kick when they are physically redirected or guided. So, lets say 3 year old is jumping on the sofa.

"dcg, jumping on the sofa is not safe. Please SIT on the sofa".

*eye contact indicates she heard you*

"dcg, sit on the sofa, or jump on the floor. Those are your choices".

*jump jump*

"since you are not being safe, I will help you off" *take hand and gently lead from sofa, or put hands under arms and set with feet on floor*

*KICK...HIT...PINCH...SCREAM..THROW NEAREST OBJECTS*

NOW WHAT????:confused:

I made that particular scenario up, and with a toddler, could have done more "hey...I know you want to jump...lets go play a jumping game over there!". Might have worked. But we've all had the kids that don't redirect and resort to temper tantrums.

My own kids would have hit me ONCE, and then they would have gotten a crack on the hiney, to be honest (my oldest tried spitting at me once!). They would have gotten the message that hitting me is SO FAR accross the line. I know...hitting a child because they hit seems a little goofy, I see the lack of logic, but because I spanked so rarely, it was affective when I did. We don't have a culture of violence in our house, so it was earth-shattering the few times it happened.

Clearly, not a choice with dck's, but what is?

PS: If you want me to move this because it's off-track, I'd be happy to start a new thread...

[Mom2TLE]

Country Kids are you from the same area as I am? I think those padded rooms were on the news 2-3 days ago?

[daycarediva]

Not to hi-jack, but I would so much love to have some training in what I SHOULD do in certain situations!

We get a big list of what we shouldn't do-spanking, humiliating, time-outs, restraining, etc. What we don't get is much training on what we should do.

Redirect...ok...got it

If that doesn't work, you're out of luck. I've had kids who hit and kick when they are physically redirected or guided. So, lets say 3 year old is jumping on the sofa.

"dcg, jumping on the sofa is not safe. Please SIT on the sofa".

*eye contact indicates she heard you*

"dcg, sit on the sofa, or jump on the floor. Those are your choices".

*jump jump*

"since you are not being safe, I will help you off" *take hand and gently lead from sofa, or put hands under arms and set with feet on floor*

*KICK...HIT...PINCH...SCREAM..THROW NEAREST OBJECTS*

NOW WHAT????:confused:

I made that particular scenario up, and with a toddler, could have done more "hey...I know you want to jump...lets go play a jumping game over there!". Might have worked. But we've all had the kids that don't redirect and resort to temper tantrums.

My own kids would have hit me ONCE, and then they would have gotten a crack on the hiney, to be honest (my oldest tried spitting at me once!). They would have gotten the message that hitting me is SO FAR accross the line. I know...hitting a child because they hit seems a little goofy, I see the lack of logic, but because I spanked so rarely, it was affective when I did. We don't have a culture of violence in our house, so it was earth-shattering the few times it happened.

Clearly, not a choice with dck's, but what is?

PS: If you want me to move this because it's off-track, I'd be happy to start a new thread...

My own ds has autism and this topic SCARES THE HECK OUT OF ME (especially since he is a tiny guy for his age!)

BUT, I have a dck with aspergers who occassionally needs to be held. DCB can be extremely violent, hits bites, punches, kicks, tries to throw/hit you with objects. Moms sits him in her lap, wraps her arms around his chest and her leg over the top of his. He is small enough to do this with, but it won't work for long, then gives him the pressure of a hug. He will headbutt her, and she will have to hold his forehead. All the while she says calming things to him and lets him know that as SOON as he is 'back to safe mode' he can be released. When dcb acts up, Mom comes and has had to do this three times in my home because he will NOT calm down and ANY and EVERYTHING gets him more and more worked up. I have a dr's note from a developmental pedi AND his psychologist.

I REFUSE to do it. I just CANNOT and WILL NOT put my hands on a child, I don't believe I have a right to do so. I would never have accepted dcb into care had Mom and I not worked this out (she works around the corner from me) and have a behavior intervention plan in place.

[Willow]

Not to hi-jack, but I would so much love to have some training in what I SHOULD do in certain situations!

We get a big list of what we shouldn't do-spanking, humiliating, time-outs, restraining, etc. What we don't get is much training on what we should do.

Redirect...ok...got it

If that doesn't work, you're out of luck. I've had kids who hit and kick when they are physically redirected or guided. So, lets say 3 year old is jumping on the sofa.

"dcg, jumping on the sofa is not safe. Please SIT on the sofa".

*eye contact indicates she heard you*

"dcg, sit on the sofa, or jump on the floor. Those are your choices".

*jump jump*

"since you are not being safe, I will help you off" *take hand and gently lead from sofa, or put hands under arms and set with feet on floor*

*KICK...HIT...PINCH...SCREAM..THROW NEAREST OBJECTS*

NOW WHAT????:confused:

I made that particular scenario up, and with a toddler, could have done more "hey...I know you want to jump...lets go play a jumping game over there!". Might have worked. But we've all had the kids that don't redirect and resort to temper tantrums.

My own kids would have hit me ONCE, and then they would have gotten a crack on the hiney, to be honest (my oldest tried spitting at me once!). They would have gotten the message that hitting me is SO FAR accross the line. I know...hitting a child because they hit seems a little goofy, I see the lack of logic, but because I spanked so rarely, it was affective when I did. We don't have a culture of violence in our house, so it was earth-shattering the few times it happened.

Clearly, not a choice with dck's, but what is?

PS: If you want me to move this because it's off-track, I'd be happy to start a new thread...

If you want to start a new thread feel free but I've got no problem with bird walks


I think the answer you're looking for to the above scenario isn't ever going to have a cookie cutter solution. The child as an individual would need to be considered, what's their currency, how likely are they to respond at all, what has worked in the past for defiance, are there any issues precipitating the behavior that you could either address or head off before the situation blows up to that point, is there anything that is preventing them from understanding and executing compliance etc. etc. etc.

I'd venture to say for most situations if one stops and looks at the whole picture instead of just getting ****ed into the panic that the situation is imminent and dire (as most actually aren't) there is a logical explanation and also probably a far more reasonable solution than restraints and/or manhandling.

[Heidi]

If you want to start a new thread feel free but I've got no problem with bird walks


I think the answer you're looking for to the above scenario isn't ever going to have a cookie cutter solution. The child as an individual would need to be considered, what's their currency, how likely are they to respond at all, what has worked in the past for defiance, are there any issues precipitating the behavior that you could either address or head off before the situation blows up to that point, is there anything that is preventing them from understanding and executing compliance etc. etc. etc.

I'd venture to say for most situations if one stops and looks at the whole picture instead of just getting ****ed into the panic that the situation is imminent and dire (as most actually aren't) there is a logical explanation and also probably a far more reasonable solution than restraints and/or manhandling.

Please don't think I was arguing IN FAVOR of restraining/manhandling!

More like expressing frustration because most trainings focus on avoiding conflicts and tantrums in the first place. Things like "don't take your child to the grocery store when she's tired". No kidding... I see time and time again that providers here have out of control children, and we all say "term". I know 2 experienced, educated providers now that are dealing with children that tantrum, hit, kick, and throw things. They've looked for "triggers", they observ the children for apparent causes; try really hard to get in there and understand why...and not one of us has come up with any real answers or solutions other than "term"....making it the next guy's problem, and not helping the kid one bit.

[DBug]

Not to hi-jack, but I would so much love to have some training in what I SHOULD do in certain situations!

We get a big list of what we shouldn't do-spanking, humiliating, time-outs, restraining, etc. What we don't get is much training on what we should do.

Redirect...ok...got it

If that doesn't work, you're out of luck.

I totally agree. Way back when I was young and VERY inexperienced, I nannied for a summer for a family with a 12 yo girl and a 6 yo boy. The boy had ADHD and was medicated for it. He had lots of energy, but was generally very manageable.

One day he decided to grab a huge butcher knife from the knife block on the counter and start swinging it around. I told him a few times very firmly to put it down and he didn't. With the knife swinging wildly around and with him trying to stab me and his sister, I managed to grab his wrist and force him to drop it. He ran to his room and absolutely went BALLISTIC! Screaming, trashing the place ... I've never seen (or heard) anything like it . Because I was clueless and had no idea what to do, I ended up holding his door shut until he calmed down. He crashed against the door several times, and he probably could have left a hole if he had continued. I was very much afraid for my safety, as well as the safety of the 12 yo.

Here's the thing: given many more years of experience, maturity and knowledge, I have NO idea what I could have done differently! This child was completely different during this episode and it was literally like he was possessed.

I would LOVE to hear some news stories on appropriate actions to take in circumstances like this!

[Willow]

Please don't think I was arguing IN FAVOR of restraining/manhandling!

No worries, I didn't get that impression at all

More like expressing frustration because most trainings focus on avoiding conflicts and tantrums in the first place. Things like "don't take your child to the grocery store when she's tired". No kidding... I see time and time again that providers here have out of control children, and we all say "term". I know 2 experienced, educated providers now that are dealing with children that tantrum, hit, kick, and throw things. They've looked for "triggers", they observ the children for apparent causes; try really hard to get in there and understand why...and not one of us has come up with any real answers or solutions other than "term"....making it the next guy's problem, and not helping the kid one bit.

I feel lucky I've never felt that stuck before. I'm sure it happens, and I've got no easy answers. I'm just not on board with the alternative of going to the extremes of an all out brawl like physical confrontation. I don't think that's going to fix anything any more than passing the buck would.


I'll scratch that and say there are times I've been left scratching my head wondering what the heck to do, and then was lucky enough to have a child behaviorist at my disposal. I learned so much from her, I wish they could offer targeted courses to learn about so much of what she knows.

I bet she'd argue there is no unhandlable children or scenarios because she sure was a wealth of explanations and creative solutions.

[Willow]

I totally agree. Way back when I was young and VERY inexperienced, I nannied for a summer for a family with a 12 yo girl and a 6 yo boy. The boy had ADHD and was medicated for it. He had lots of energy, but was generally very manageable.

One day he decided to grab a huge butcher knife from the knife block on the counter and start swinging it around. I told him a few times very firmly to put it down and he didn't. With the knife swinging wildly around and with him trying to stab me and his sister, I managed to grab his wrist and force him to drop it. He ran to his room and absolutely went BALLISTIC! Screaming, trashing the place ... I've never seen (or heard) anything like it . Because I was clueless and had no idea what to do, I ended up holding his door shut until he calmed down. He crashed against the door several times, and he probably could have left a hole if he had continued. I was very much afraid for my safety, as well as the safety of the 12 yo.

Here's the thing: given many more years of experience, maturity and knowledge, I have NO idea what I could have done differently! This child was completely different during this episode and it was literally like he was possessed.

I would LOVE to hear some news stories on appropriate actions to take in circumstances like this!

No clue if the parents were aware he was prone to outbursts like that before they hired you but if they were I'd have hoped they would have done the responsible thing and clued you in, set up a safety plan you were able to execute reasonably and then set to removing access to all dangerous implements around the house before they left!

[Country Kids]

Country Kids are you from the same area as I am? I think those padded rooms were on the news 2-3 days ago?

Close to you. Yes they were on the news.

[Angelsj]

Not to hi-jack, but I would so much love to have some training in what I SHOULD do in certain situations!

We get a big list of what we shouldn't do-spanking, humiliating, time-outs, restraining, etc. What we don't get is much training on what we should do.

Redirect...ok...got it

If that doesn't work, you're out of luck. I've had kids who hit and kick when they are physically redirected or guided. So, lets say 3 year old is jumping on the sofa.

"dcg, jumping on the sofa is not safe. Please SIT on the sofa".

*eye contact indicates she heard you*

"dcg, sit on the sofa, or jump on the floor. Those are your choices".

*jump jump*

"since you are not being safe, I will help you off" *take hand and gently lead from sofa, or put hands under arms and set with feet on floor*

*KICK...HIT...PINCH...SCREAM..THROW NEAREST OBJECTS*

NOW WHAT????:confused:

I made that particular scenario up, and with a toddler, could have done more "hey...I know you want to jump...lets go play a jumping game over there!". Might have worked. But we've all had the kids that don't redirect and resort to temper tantrums.

My own kids would have hit me ONCE, and then they would have gotten a crack on the hiney, to be honest (my oldest tried spitting at me once!). They would have gotten the message that hitting me is SO FAR accross the line. I know...hitting a child because they hit seems a little goofy, I see the lack of logic, but because I spanked so rarely, it was affective when I did. We don't have a culture of violence in our house, so it was earth-shattering the few times it happened.

Clearly, not a choice with dck's, but what is?

PS: If you want me to move this because it's off-track, I'd be happy to start a new thread...

Personally, if the other children or yourself are in danger, I would hold. I have been trained to hold safely (I have several kids on the spectrum and I take special needs kiddos), and would have no problem doing this with an out of control child.
No matter what you do, you will have people who abuse their positions of power. If all providers were trained to hold properly, and taught what behaviors were acceptable (I would never hold a child because they would not lay down for a nap), it could be done safely and appropriately.
I also believe teachers, or at least someone in each school, needs to have this training and ability. I would much rather my child was held correctly and fairly than to have them hurt someone, and end up regretting that decision.