Need the $ but.......

[Bizzymom1111]

Hi everyone! I just need some advice about my situation with a family. I had 2 brothers (1&3) start about a month ago, and it is not going very well. There are a lot of reasons( this might turn into a vent- just to warn you!!). I've posted about the older boy( he's my screamer, and that hasn't improved much at all), he continuously doesn't follow directions, disrupts the group during circletime and activities, and just recently I've discovered that he is being destructive ( I caught him chipping paint off the trim in my hallway, pulling threads out of my carpet and coloring on the walls). He really doesn't get along with ANY of the other kids, and my ds is the same age as him and he doesn't like him at all and makes that known. The baby, ( I call him that, but he's 15 months) is VERY far behind developmentally. He doesn't walk, and when I try to put him in a standing position, he won't even put his legs down. When he is sitting on the floor, he has a hard time keeping himself upright. He 'll just be suiting there and out of the blue, just fall forward, banging his head on the floor. He doesn't even use his hands to brace himself. Also, when I carry him, he can barley hold himself up. He'll be flaing all over the place. Also, he doesn't talk. I have an 18 month old that can walk, talk in sentences, and is so far ahead of where the 15 month old is it's hard to tell they are only 3-4 mo the apart. I know kids all develop at their own pace, and I'm not trying to compare, but for his AGE he is behind.

Sooo, when they started, I had also noticed that their facial features looked a little off. They both have widely spaced eyes and a flat area between their nose and lip, and I had mentioned that to my DH. After doing a little research online and also from hearing from the mom about some of her "bar" stories( she's a single mom) Im kind of starting to wonder if these boys have Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. It wouldn't suprise me. The little one especially. He has so many of the physical and developmental symptoms. If that is the case, and it seems like it might be, I'm not sure I can handle this. They are full time, county pay while the mom "looks" for work, and after further research, I think they've bounced from daycare to daycare. Kids with FAS need ALOT of direction and one on one care, and to be honest, I can't provide that. I have 8 other kids to care for. Does this make me a horrible person? I feel bad, because they do not have any kind o stability in their life, but it's just too much for me to take on.

So my real problem that I have is that I have 4 kids of my own, and I really need that money. It's almst $500 every 2 weeks, and I don't have kids to fill their spots right now. So do I just endure this or should I terminate? Regardless of if they do have FAS, they just really don't fit in well here. I find I have to use all my willpower just to force a smile with them. But again, we REALLY need that income. Argggggggghhhhh! What is anyones advice? Sorry this got super long! I just reall needed to get it out!

Thanks for reading!!!

[GretasLittleFriends]

What does your contract say regarding termination on your end? How much notice are you required to give your families when you terminate. If it were me I would be looking for someone to fill their slots, then when you are sure you have someone to fill the slots, then terminate them (with the notice you agreed to). That's what I would do...

Out of curiosity, is the mom getting help for her kids, such as head start or something like that? I know lots of counties have early interception type programs to help catch and get problems treated, a lot of situations they are free. I know where I live, if the parents aren't willing to get the help the provider can call the group and suggest that the group contact the parent... I forget what it's called. I can look it up later and get back to you, that might be an option for these kids.

[Bizzymom1111]

My policy states that I reserve the right to terminated care, without notice period, should it be deemed necessary fo the overall safety and well being of my family and/or my daycare.

I think I will start advertising for their spots. I can't deal with this much longer! I do believe that our county has early childhood screening but that isn't until 3 years of age. I would think that their doctor would have pointed out these things to the mom. I'm wondering if he did, and she's just not telling anyone. Maybe out of guilt or shame? Because she acts like they are just perfect, and acts suprised when I tell her about their behavior and what I've noticed. But how do you say to a parent that thinks the world of their kids, that you think they have developmental/ behavioral problems, without them getting offended? I'm sure she is well aware of them, but fails to disclose this to providers.

[DCMom]

Have you talked to dcm about your behavioral/developmental concerns? She may not want to hear it and if she isn't willing to work with you, I would be advertising to fill the spots. You need to think long and hard if these are the type of kids you want in your care.

About the FAS, my best friends step-daughter was diagnosed at 2. A very, very long story but the girl is now 19 years old, has problems that I could write pages and pages about. Her behavior eventually contributed greatly to the divorce of her dad and my friend.

I would not feel the least bit guilty letting this family go if you didn't feel that you could give them the specialized care that they need. I would also encourage mom to get help for them; there are many resources out there and available to them.

[Unregistered]

Ok first dont wait around for a doctor to say something is wrong with the 15 month old I watched a baby when he was 3 months old and I knew right off the bat something was wrong he couldnt hold his head up he would arch his back and scream out of nowhere the parents and doc kept saying it was his tummy as he got older other things came up he didnt sit up or crawl till he was 12 months he didnt like bright light and would scream and throw tantrums with bright light and loud noises I knew he had Sensory Processing Disorder before the parents and docs did he left my care at 18 months old because he was going to start a pre school at the daycare parents Mothers work he wasnt talking nor walking the doc finally said something and they had all kinds of test run on him and he is SPD and has a developemental delay of 6 months Mom should of known as she is a teacher but when its your own you see them differently the 3 year old sounds like he may be adhd or he isnt displined at home YOU as a provider have a JOB and you NEED to tell the Mother what you think and that she needs to take them to get evaluated.

[Bizzymom1111]

Have you talked to dcm about your behavioral/developmental concerns? She may not want to hear it and if she isn't willing to work with you, I would be advertising to fill the spots. You need to think long and hard if these are the type of kids you want in your care.

About the FAS, my best friends step-daughter was diagnosed at 2. A very, very long story but the girl is now 19 years old, has problems that I could write pages and pages about. Her behavior eventually contributed greatly to the divorce of her dad and my friend.

I would not feel the least bit guilty letting this family go if you didn't feel that you could give them the specialized care that they need. I would also encourage mom to get help for them; there are many resources out there and available to them.

Thanks DCMom, that makes me feel more validated in my feelings. This isn't something that I'm ready or willing to take on at this point.
As far as talking to the mother, I had asked her if she had had the younger ones ears checked before I figured out that it probably was FAS, because the little guys coordination is so off, and she said the Dr. said they were fine. End of discussion. She didn't appear open to discussing it any further. Almost as though she was offended. I don't even know how I would even begin to bring this up. Like I said, when I tell her about her 3yo's behavior, she acts soo suprised. But then she starts saying it's all because of her ex who was a jerk.
Im probably going to start looking to fill their spots. After reading these posts through again and listening to myself explain this- that's pretty clear. Some people just don't want to hear the truth. Unfortunately my DCM is one of them. Thanks for the advice!

[JenNJ]

I never bring up medical issues with my dc parents. I am not a doctor and it is not my job to diagnose. I simply point out behaviors/issues that plant the questions in their head.

[DCMom]

I never bring up medical issues with my dc parents. I am not a doctor and it is not my job to diagnose. I simply point out behaviors/issues that plant the questions in their head.

I agree; I wasn't clear in my response. I would stick to the behavioral/developmental issues, no matter what I personally suspect that the cause is; I would not offer a 'diagnosis' as part of the discussion.

[Bizzymom1111]

I agree; I wasn't clear in my response. I would stick to the behavioral/developmental issues, no matter what I personally suspect that the cause is; I would not offer a 'diagnosis' as part of the discussion.

Absolutely! I would never start offering my opinions about any suspected medical diagnosis. It's hard enough telling her the older one had a time out for slamming someone with a toy! I only talk to her about what her children are doing, and sometimes she seems offended by that. Peoples kids are always a touchy subject.

[nannyde]

Absolutely! I would never start offering my opinions about any suspected medical diagnosis. It's hard enough telling her the older one had a time out for slamming someone with a toy! I only talk to her about what her children are doing, and sometimes she seems offended by that. Peoples kids are always a touchy subject.

You have a couple of competing issues when trying to talk to parents about problems with their kids.

The most common one is that most parents view their children as advanced and smart. I've had kids who were significantly delayed and had multiple pervasive develpmental delays and had their parents insist that they were very smart or gifted. I've had kids who were borderline retarded and had to sit across the couch and listen to their parents telling me they were VERY smart.

When you start talking about development and "smarts" the parents first reeaction is to defend their currrent thinking. They often don't give that up until they are in the "big pond" of school where their kid is surrounded by age mates and the adults don't loose a penny of their income if they insist on the truth being told. Once the teachers start telling the parents the truth then bit by bit they change their thinking to that their child is "average" or "normal". Then when they get signficantly behind and the normal course of teaching and learning do not net MEASURABLE things like reading, math, etc. THEN and only THEN do the parents start coming to Jesus about the true skill set and issues with the kid.

The second thing you are fighting against is the NO that comes with telling them their kid is acting badly. The parent wants to pick the kid up and not have to deal with anything. They don't want to change what they are doing at home unless that change means that they are going to have an easier deal. If the change means something that is hard and a bunch of work then you telling them it needs to happen is the same as saying NO to them. They want a YES.

If you tell them that their kid is having significant problems you will most likely be met with "he doesn't do that at home so it has to be you and your house". That's the big YES they need to get out of facing reality and dealing with it. Believe me you... they will go to the YES most of the time.

Now sometimes you get realistic parents who really want the truth and want their kid to be good at your house. They are usually the parents who are parenting their kids and make them mind. If they mind at home they will most likely mind at day care so those parents aren't ones you have to talk to in the first place.

So it's not so much that parents are "touchy" about their kids.. it's more that they don't want to deal with whatever you are selling and they have a preconceived notion that not only is their kid perfectly normal but truth be told they are smarter than most if not the smartest. They don't want you to disassemble that idea.

If you insist they most often will just leave and go somewhere where they don't have to be challenged. They will keep doing that until they have NO choice which is in early childhood care situations when the child is violent and in elementary schools when the child is easily compared to age mates and the adults caring for their child don't loose any money when they tell the truth and expect action.

[GretasLittleFriends]

I do believe that our county has early childhood screening but that isn't until 3 years of age.

I'm not referring to a school rediness/preschool screening. Our area (through the state) has an Interagency Early Intervention Committee (IEIC) along with a Central Intake System. You should contact your state's Department of Education or local Early Childhood Education to see if there is an agency like this in your area. The IEIC covers a much broader age range, starting at a younger age. Get their contact information for your area. It will be very helpful for you to refer them to your parent(s).

I would think that their doctor would have pointed out these things to the mom.

If the doctor noticed them. I don't know about you, but when I've taken my kids to the clinic, I'm handed a sheet asking me to check what they can and cannot do. Then the dr looks at this during the 15min in the office. Also is an ear check, height, weight, vision, etc. If the mom "fibs" on the form the Dr won't know any different at a younger age. The mother has to feel concerned and express them to the doctor (most of the time) in order for the doctor to address them.

But how do you say to a parent that thinks the world of their kids, that you think they have developmental/ behavioral problems, without them getting offended? I'm sure she is well aware of them, but fails to disclose this to providers.

I took a class called "Children's Development: What to Expect and When to Be Concerned". It was meant for these types of situations. Here's what it says to do:

• Observe the child involved in a variety of activities
• Observe the child over an extended period of time.
• Record time of day, day of week and activity the child is engaged in during observation.
• Be objective rather than subjective when observing the child. (facts not feelings)
• Make some objective notes about the challenges you believe the child is having, in addition to your observation forms. Be as specific as possible.
• Request a specific time to talk to the family, preferably when you both have time to spend talking and not feeling rushed.
• Assure the family that the discussion you are having will remain confidential.
• Present concerns by opening hte conversation with a positive comment about the child/ren, discussing the difficulty or concern in a positive manner, and then end with another positive about the child. (The compliment sandwich)
• As you begin to share information, provide your documentation (with specific, nonjudgmental examples of what you have observed.)
• Give the parents plenty of time to ask questions. (Remember to be respectful)
• Have suggestions ready if they say they are willing to consider an assessment and help them take the next steps. (This would be contacting the IEIC or similar...)
• If the family chooses to ignore your concerns, continue to support them and the child/ren, raising concerns again when it is appropriate. Not all families are ready to hear about concerns and it may take them time to process this information.

Most importantly as listed in previous posts do NOT mention any specific ailments or diagnoses. That is not your job (and I'm guessing not your qualifications.)

Oh, and good luck!!

[Bizzymom1111]

As I said before, I would never mention any specific diagnosis to the parents because obviously it's just a guess on my part. I'm not that ignorant or rude as to say something to the mom like that.

Regardless, if I find replacements, I'll give them notice. They're just not adjusting well here and are more dissruptive than anything.

[nannyde]

I'm not referring to a school rediness/preschool screening. Our area (through the state) has an Interagency Early Intervention Committee (IEIC) along with a Central Intake System. You should contact your state's Department of Education or local Early Childhood Education to see if there is an agency like this in your area. The IEIC covers a much broader age range, starting at a younger age. Get their contact information for your area. It will be very helpful for you to refer them to your parent(s).

If the doctor noticed them. I don't know about you, but when I've taken my kids to the clinic, I'm handed a sheet asking me to check what they can and cannot do. Then the dr looks at this during the 15min in the office. Also is an ear check, height, weight, vision, etc. If the mom "fibs" on the form the Dr won't know any different at a younger age. The mother has to feel concerned and express them to the doctor (most of the time) in order for the doctor to address them.

I took a class called "Children's Development: What to Expect and When to Be Concerned". It was meant for these types of situations. Here's what it says to do:

• Observe the child involved in a variety of activities
• Observe the child over an extended period of time.
• Record time of day, day of week and activity the child is engaged in during observation.
• Be objective rather than subjective when observing the child. (facts not feelings)
• Make some objective notes about the challenges you believe the child is having, in addition to your observation forms. Be as specific as possible.
• Request a specific time to talk to the family, preferably when you both have time to spend talking and not feeling rushed.
• Assure the family that the discussion you are having will remain confidential.
• Present concerns by opening hte conversation with a positive comment about the child/ren, discussing the difficulty or concern in a positive manner, and then end with another positive about the child. (The compliment sandwich)
• As you begin to share information, provide your documentation (with specific, nonjudgmental examples of what you have observed.)
• Give the parents plenty of time to ask questions. (Remember to be respectful)
• Have suggestions ready if they say they are willing to consider an assessment and help them take the next steps. (This would be contacting the IEIC or similar...)
• If the family chooses to ignore your concerns, continue to support them and the child/ren, raising concerns again when it is appropriate. Not all families are ready to hear about concerns and it may take them time to process this information.

Most importantly as listed in previous posts do NOT mention any specific ailments or diagnoses. That is not your job (and I'm guessing not your qualifications.)

Oh, and good luck!!

The problem with the "compliment sandwhich" is you have parents walking away from the conversation focusing on the two sides of the compliment.

I don't agree with that approach. It's like when day care parents come and give you notice and they say "we love you so much and little Johnny has learned so much at your house but we think he needs to start his PrePreschool career".

Did they just give me a compliment while they fired me? YUP they did

We need to STOP tip toeing around parents and get to the truth. We should not have to sandwhich in our concerns. It doesn't go well in a human brain. The human brain will pick out the yes and reject the no UNLESS there is an immediate consequence that is painful with the NO... like me being fired.

I do agree we shouldn't be doing any diagnosis. What we need to be able to do is tell the parent the truth about what we see with this kid in this environment and what our experience tells us is interfering with the happiness, safety, peace, fairness etc. of the group of kids AND the adult in our home.

We need to stop mollycoddling this generation. It isn't working.

[GretasLittleFriends]

The problem with the "compliment sandwhich" is you have parents walking away from the conversation focusing on the two sides of the compliment.

We need to stop mollycoddling this generation. It isn't working.

I see what you mean about the sandwich. I was just typing what was given to us from class. You bring up a very good point. I think the thought behind it is that even though Johnny has all of these problems I want you to know I can see the good in him as well. He's not a "bad" child, he just has problems that need to be addressed and corrected.

I agree with you 100% about "mollycoddling" this generation.

[nannyde]

I see what you mean about the sandwich. I was just typing what was given to us from class. You bring up a very good point. I think the thought behind it is that even though Johnny has all of these problems I want you to know I can see the good in him as well. He's not a "bad" child, he just has problems that need to be addressed and corrected.

I agree with you 100% about "mollycoddling" this generation.

I see what you are saying but I think it's a slippery slope. You really run the risk that they are going to walk away with whatever you have used on the outside as their take a way from the conversation. Or.. they think that whatever the problem is it's not all THAT bad because he's really great at blah blah blah.

It minimizes the seriousness of what you are there for in the first place if you frost it with compliments.

I have had great success with the truth. When these kids act up I rat them out. I tell parents when I don't like what they are doing and I discipline the kids right in front of their parents so they can see what I do when they aren't here.

If I think something is wrong you can be sure something is wrong. I try to be very specific when I'm telling them that something is wrong.

I'm in a good position that I don't take in older kids. I get my kids as babies so I can raise them in our ways. It is very rare that I have to have these talks with parents. I deal with issues when they are small so they don't get big.

I use time out maybe once every couple of years. I've never had to put a kid on time out twice. My kids don't even know what time out is because I don't have to go that far with them. If a kid goes in time out here BELIEVE that there will be truth told to the parent THAT day. Most likely a first shot warning via text and then a conference when they get here.

I don't play. I don't play with kids and I don't play with their parents. I'm not going to live in a world where children are violent, disrespectful, and don't mind adults. That's hell to me and I can't live like that.