Apologizing

[QualiTcare]

you shouldn't make a kid say they're sorry - period, end of story.

[Janet]

Apologizing

Yeah, I agree. My rationale for not forcing an apology may be a bit different. It's not about being fair to the aggressor, it's about helping them to be genuine when they apologize. There will still be a consequence, believe that! But an apology doesn't figure into the equation unless the aggressor chooses to apologize on his/her own.

[TGT09]

I don't think your are necessarily wrong, I think it is one of those judgement things. Personally, I do make kids apologize...generally to the ENTIRE group when age approriate.

Say Susie hits Tommy. I would tell Susie that she has broken the rules of my home, she has hurt another person and all her friends have had to stop our activity to deal with her poor choices. I am very unhappy about that and so are her friends. She needs to apologize to me for breaking my rules, to her friends for interrupting our play time, and to Tommy for hurting him. She is then prohibited from returning to the group activity and may sit and look at books at the table until we have finished.

DISCLAIMER: I am not talking about toddlers, but children who are old enough to understand. If they can understand what they did is wrong they can understand the consequences. And, for those who want to say that it is wrong to "shame" a child by making them publicly apologize...they should be ashamed, they hit someone! Personally, I think that the whole, "let's not shame the child thing" is where we are going wrong as a society. No, we shouldn't shame a child for an accident, but it is OK to be ashamed if we hurt another person, intentionally or carelessly damage someones property, or take something that doesn't belong to us.

No need to zip the flame suit here either! Oh good Lord, finally someone that I completely agree with! COMPLETELY! I feel like a big meanie when I go out of my way to make a child apologize....I have one that wants to apologize in whisper and I don't even allow that...he has to say it out loud or go back in time out. YES, we should make them say "I'm sorry"....children who don't have to apologize are not having consequences and therefore are NOT learning anything! Children learn from consequences...whether it's fun or PC, it's true!!!!

[TGT09]

Oh and to finish reading the rest of the posts. Time out is not an easy out because in my daycare it's followed by a conversation. No matter what age of the child they have to come to me, make eye contact and tell ME what they did wrong and explain WHY it was wrong.

I agree that "I'm sorry" becomes an easy out for children, however you have to enforce the conversation afterwards. It's not the end of the punishment just for saying I'm sorry.

[jen]

I don't do the whole "apologizing" thing and this is why. Kids who are told to apologize start to associate saying "sorry" with automatically getting out of trouble. If a child chooses to apologize, then that's fine, but the consequence is still in effect. Kids learn that they can do what they want and then just throw a "sorry" out there. They don't even have to mean it. To me, "I'm sorry" are just words. I tell them not to be sorry, just make better choices.

That is why when my daycare kids apologize they are not allowed back in to the group. It isn't a get out of jail free card!

[fctjc1979]

Getting some great replies here. At least the people who disagree with me are giving REASONS. I honestly couldn't get anyone to give me reasons as to why they thought I was wrong. Here is another one that I thought of last night.

If you force a child to say I'm sorry, and they aren't sorry, aren't you asking - actually demanding - that they lie? I think I would much rather ask them if they would like to apologize and/or explain why I think they should apologize and then leave the decision to apologize up to the child.

I also agree that and I'm sorry, even a heart felt one, should not get the child out of trouble.

I would have to disagree with TGT09 about them not having consequences if they don't have to apologize. I honestly don't think that apologizing should be part of the punishment. As I wrote in another post, I think that's how we get adults that can't apologize even when they know they're wrong because they see it as a punishment.

Thanks for the comments everyone. I'm still not ready to change my mind, but at least I have an understanding of why people use this.

I saw in one daycare where a boy bit a girl hard enough to break the skin. The provider screamed at the boy to apologize to the girl. When he did, the girl was standing there, sobbing and holding her arm, and she turned away rather than responding. (I happen to know this girl and knew she just didn't like people seeing her cry.) The provider grabbed the girl by the arm (not the arm that was bitten), turned her around to face the boy, and said, "That was not nice! He just apologized to you!". Then she made the girl sit in the corner when she wouldn't respond to the boy. I know this is an extreme case. I've never seen anything like this before or since. And from the posts on here, I don't think any of the providers on here are advocating making the victim forgive. I'm just giving this as an example of what I've seen - and as something that, once I did see it, reinforced my belief that forced apologies don't work for the offender or the victim. (Yes, something WAS done about this situation.)

[jen]

I just want to add that I NEVER make the victim respond. And if they do want to respond, I suggest that they simply say thank you. It's not "OK" and I don't really want the victim to say that it is.

[Lilbutterflie]

I never make the victim respond, either. I agree, sometimes they are not ready to talk to the offender yet! And that is totally understandable.
I do make the offender apologize, though- AFTER they have had their punishment. I think they need to learn that their actions affect other people and apologize for what they have done to the victim. Another important part of apologies in my opinion is that if forces them to verbally admit they did something wrong. It doesn't get any more real than when they have to say sorry.
I had a dcg rip up a Thomas and Friends catalog this morning. ALL of the kids LOVE this catalog and look at it daily. She ruined it for everyone! So, she had to apologize to every child individually. She was sincere in her apology, and I don't think she'll ever rip anything up again!!

[DBug]

I agree -- I do make the kids apologize, after they have served their time (or whatever the consequence is). They don't get out of time-out early for apologizing, but the older ones will get sent back if they don't apologize.

In my opinion, it's more about teaching societal expectations. If I bump into someone on the sidewalk, I say sorry to them, whether it was my fault or theirs (although maybe that's a Canadian thing :. It's just like teaching them to say "Thank You" for a gift, even if they're not thankful. It's diplomacy, and yes, sometimes it's fake. But which one of us asks the grocery clerk "How are you today?", and actually means it? We don't, it's just how we behave in a society like this. To do anything else would be impolite and rude. JMO ... I also suggest (not require) that the victim say "That's okay" or "I forgive you", because I believe forgiveness is a choice, not a feeling. I would much rather give kids the opportunity to practice social skills like this. It forces them to think about others, and not just themselves. It creates opportunities for empathy, and I think that's a good thing.

[QualiTcare]

Getting some great replies here. At least the people who disagree with me are giving REASONS. I honestly couldn't get anyone to give me reasons as to why they thought I was wrong. Here is another one that I thought of last night.

If you force a child to say I'm sorry, and they aren't sorry, aren't you asking - actually demanding - that they lie? I think I would much rather ask them if they would like to apologize and/or explain why I think they should apologize and then leave the decision to apologize up to the child.

I also agree that and I'm sorry, even a heart felt one, should not get the child out of trouble.

I would have to disagree with TGT09 about them not having consequences if they don't have to apologize. I honestly don't think that apologizing should be part of the punishment. As I wrote in another post, I think that's how we get adults that can't apologize even when they know they're wrong because they see it as a punishment.

Thanks for the comments everyone. I'm still not ready to change my mind, but at least I have an understanding of why people use this.

I saw in one daycare where a boy bit a girl hard enough to break the skin. The provider screamed at the boy to apologize to the girl. When he did, the girl was standing there, sobbing and holding her arm, and she turned away rather than responding. (I happen to know this girl and knew she just didn't like people seeing her cry.) The provider grabbed the girl by the arm (not the arm that was bitten), turned her around to face the boy, and said, "That was not nice! He just apologized to you!". Then she made the girl sit in the corner when she wouldn't respond to the boy. I know this is an extreme case. I've never seen anything like this before or since. And from the posts on here, I don't think any of the providers on here are advocating making the victim forgive. I'm just giving this as an example of what I've seen - and as something that, once I did see it, reinforced my belief that forced apologies don't work for the offender or the victim. (Yes, something WAS done about this situation.)

well, i didn't give the reason that i said kids shouldn't have to apologize, but my reasons are:

A) i believe what you believe..
B) every professor i had when i was getting my early childhood degree that took FOUR years...that's a lot of professors - had the same logic.

i'll go with my gut, and what the experts say. my husband tells me that i HATE saying i'm sorry, and i'm like, "noo...i'm just usually not sorry." i don't say i'm sorry if i'm not and if i say something really evil, i pretty much meant to say it and it felt good. why would i say i'm sorry?

the best alternative IMO is "I messages" - which takes the blame out of it when u have the kids talk...instead of them saying, "YOU made me mad when YOU took my toy..." they say, "I felt..."

i didn't get the concept online, but here's a website that talks about it:

http://www.drnadig.com/feelings.htm

if you teach the kids to use these "i messages" then instead of saying, "say you're sorry," you can ask, "can you use an i message to tell johnny what ur thinking." it has to be taught and modeled - they don't just know how to do it after one time unlike "i'm sorry" which is very simple to remember and unacceptably sufficient.

[fctjc1979]

I agree -- I do make the kids apologize, after they have served their time (or whatever the consequence is). They don't get out of time-out early for apologizing, but the older ones will get sent back if they don't apologize.

In my opinion, it's more about teaching societal expectations. If I bump into someone on the sidewalk, I say sorry to them, whether it was my fault or theirs (although maybe that's a Canadian thing :. It's just like teaching them to say "Thank You" for a gift, even if they're not thankful. It's diplomacy, and yes, sometimes it's fake. But which one of us asks the grocery clerk "How are you today?", and actually means it? We don't, it's just how we behave in a society like this. To do anything else would be impolite and rude. JMO ... I also suggest (not require) that the victim say "That's okay" or "I forgive you", because I believe forgiveness is a choice, not a feeling. I would much rather give kids the opportunity to practice social skills like this. It forces them to think about others, and not just themselves. It creates opportunities for empathy, and I think that's a good thing.

This was a really good point. There are a lot of everyday phrases that we use as just societal norms that have nothing to do with how we actually feel or think. The difference for me, I think, is that I don't count "I'm sorry" as one of them. I use "excuse me" when I bump into someone unless I really would like to apologize because I was being careless. I think I place a lot of significance on phrases like "I'm sorry", "I love you", and "I forgive you". Because these are phrases that are lies if they aren't truly felt, I use other phrases if I don't actually feel them. But I totally see your point about teaching kids manners and how to get through society by being polite and following the norms even if they don't want to. We teach the same type of thing when we teach kids to use a respectful tone with adults even if they have no respect for that particular adult. I had more in my head, but just lost my train of thought. Geesh. ::

[fctjc1979]

well, i didn't give the reason that i said kids shouldn't have to apologize, but my reasons are:

A) i believe what you believe..
B) every professor i had when i was getting my early childhood degree that took FOUR years...that's a lot of professors - had the same logic.

i'll go with my gut, and what the experts say. my husband tells me that i HATE saying i'm sorry, and i'm like, "noo...i'm just usually not sorry." i don't say i'm sorry if i'm not and if i say something really evil, i pretty much meant to say it and it felt good. why would i say i'm sorry?

the best alternative IMO is "I messages" - which takes the blame out of it when u have the kids talk...instead of them saying, "YOU made me mad when YOU took my toy..." they say, "I felt..."

i didn't get the concept online, but here's a website that talks about it:

http://www.drnadig.com/feelings.htm

if you teach the kids to use these "i messages" then instead of saying, "say you're sorry," you can ask, "can you use an i message to tell johnny what ur thinking." it has to be taught and modeled - they don't just know how to do it after one time unlike "i'm sorry" which is very simple to remember and unacceptably sufficient.

I use something sort of similar to that for kids that I know aren't sorry for what they did. I've made a couple of kids say to me or their victim things like "I know I shouldn't have ........." That way, they have to at least acknowledge that they did wrong but they don't have to say they're sorry for doing it if they really aren't. I've only used this for kids that have chronic bad behavior, though, in order to reinforce the discipline and learning for that particular behavior. It's not something I usually do for "incidentals". And even then, I won't have them say it to the victim if the victim still wants to stay away from the offender. I do not encourage the offender approaching the victim in any way until the victim is ready for it.

[QualiTcare]

I use something sort of similar to that for kids that I know aren't sorry for what they did. I've made a couple of kids say to me or their victim things like "I know I shouldn't have ........." That way, they have to at least acknowledge that they did wrong but they don't have to say they're sorry for doing it if they really aren't. I've only used this for kids that have chronic bad behavior, though, in order to reinforce the discipline and learning for that particular behavior. It's not something I usually do for "incidentals". And even then, I won't have them say it to the victim if the victim still wants to stay away from the offender. I do not encourage the offender approaching the victim in any way until the victim is ready for it.

you just lost me. isn't having them say, "i know i shouldn't have.." sort of the same as having them say, "i'm sorry"?

maybe they don't think they shouldn't have. they might have knocked someone in the head and loved every minute of it. i just don't see the difference.

[fctjc1979]

you just lost me. isn't having them say, "i know i shouldn't have.." sort of the same as having them say, "i'm sorry"?

maybe they don't think they shouldn't have. they might have knocked someone in the head and loved every minute of it. i just don't see the difference.

No, it's not the same thing. For instance, if a child A calls child B a bad name, child B hits child A, and both children get in trouble, child B may know he shouldn't have hit child A for calling him a name, but that doesn't mean he's sorry. Knowing the rules and being sorry for breaking the rules are two different things. It's just an acknowledgement that they know what the rules are. Just like most adults know they aren't supposed to speed, but are we really sorry for going five miles over on the highway? Probably not. Knowing the rules is intellectual, being sorry is emotional.

[professionalmom]

There was a lot of discussion about discipline in another thread and since that thread, I have been thinking about a few things. First, I am the one that has the 4 year degree in criminal justice. Long story as to why the career change, but trust me it would make a whole lot of sense. And there is a connection between early childhood and juvenile delinquents.

All that aside, when I was in college, I learned about a new form of law/justice that was just emerging. It was called "restorative justice". The concept was focused on "healing the harm". They had a ton of success with juveniles. It would work like this: Teens A, B, & C jump a construction site's fence and vandalize the site. They get arrested. Under traditional juvenile justice systems, they would go to trial and then a juvenile detention center (jail/prison). Under restorative justice, a mediator would take over, sit down in a meeting with the owner of the construction company (& maybe a some of his employees), the kids, the parents, and the people who would benefit from the construction project finishing on time. So it becomes a meeting of the community. The kids have to listen to the victims talk about how the vandalism harmed them, set them back, how it impacts the community, etc. Then everyone brainstorms on ways the kids can fix what they have "broken". This could be removing graffiti, picking up the trash, apologizing to the entire construction crew, doing 20 hours of (age appropriate) work for the construction company, etc. This severely reduced the recidivism (repeat offender) rate.

How would that work in daycare? Well, for the children that can talk, you can have the victim tell the bully what the victim felt, how it physically hurt, how it scared him/her, how the victim doesn't want to play with the bully for a while, etc. This may help them to begin the process of understanding that words and actions do affect others. They are way to young to understand empathy, but it does set the foundation for it. Plus, the focus is on "fixing the harm" not "punishment for a crime". So if kid A smacked kid B, kid A could "kiss the boo boo" or hand you help you put a bandaid on the victim (even if there isn't a mark), etc.

Of course, back in my day, if kid A hit kid B, then kid B was allowed to hit kid A back to "show" kid B how it felt. You got the picture really fast. But we can't do that in daycare.