How Long Can You Put a Child in a Time Out

[Crystal]

Very excellent point. What about the injured child? Why in the world are we so concerned about the "feelings" of the perpetrator and never mention the INJURED child. At some point, children NEED to learn that there are consequences for their actions. And the bottom line is that the injured child needs to know that the adults charged with protecting him/her (especially mom or dad) will protect him or her and love him/her enough to right the wrong. Otherwise the injured child will only learn that (s)he who bullies will always be the winner and get away with the bad behavior. The focus needs to be on righting the wrong, healing the injured, and ensuring the safety of others, while having a stiff penalty for the abusive child.

If we put that same focus on domestic violence it would go like this: man beats his wife, the judge calmly explains why this behavior is wrong, puts the man in time-out, then expects the man and woman to go back to living together in harmony. Would that be acceptable to any of the proponents of "soft discipline"? Would you like to be that woman? Heck, no! Violence is unacceptable, no matter what the age. Period! I am really tired of people making excuses for the behavior and treating violent people (no matter what the age) with kid gloves as if the bully will be forever destroyed if (s)he has to be held accountable, all the while ignoring the poor victim who is supposed to "understand". BULL!!

You hit my child, your contract will be terminated ASAP and your parents will come and get you immediately. Until they get there, you will be in time out. Period. I am NOT going to endanger MY child because of a violent bully! And, yes, that has happened. And the injury was bad enough that it very well could have caused brain damage (hard, wood block on my 10 mth old DD's head, barely missing her soft spot!).

Sorry, but the injured child gets MY sympathy, not the bully. The violent child will be quickly removed from the situation and I will "baby" the victim. Parents will be called. Period. I focus on the victim! They are the one who deserves the coddling, not the bully!

I never once said show sympathy for the bully or to care more about how he feels than the victim. Of course I would show the victim all of the sympathy and attention - any one with any common sense would do so....it's not a novel idea.

[Crystal]

He is SIX. He can go to Chucky Cheese for 45 minutes. He can go to a movie that is an hour and a half. He can play Ninetendo for 45 minutes.

What the HECK do you think is wrong with him having a time out for 45 minutes? Why is it that it's okay for kids to do fun and pleasurable things for hours on end but they have to have consequences be litterally minutes? That is INSANE.

Do you think when he gets put in the office at school they have him put his head on a desk for six minutes? Do you think the process of disciplining him at school is limited to six minutes?

It is rediculous. It really is. At some point we HAVE to start expecting these kids who are VIOLENT to have CONSEQUENCES that MATTER to them.

This is his story:

He is always hitting with either his hands, throwing toys, anything.

And low and behold, right away this morning he pummeled my son.

but it is constant every day.

This kid put his HANDS on the providers son. He was a guest in someones house and in the public and he HIT her child. That is INSANE. He needs to have a VERY VERY VERY serious consequence that affects his happiness for a significant amount of time. He needs to have serious limitations on ANY activity he does FOR WEEKS that puts any other child at risk. Whether he goes to her day care or ANYWHERE else the adults need to be LIMITING his world very very small everywhere he goes for a SIGNIFICANT... and I mean WEEKS... amount of time.

He needs to EARN the privledge of being around other children by having excellent consistent behavior over a significant amount of time. You can't do that in six minutes.

ENOUGH

ENOUGH

ENOUGH

I'm sick of it. I really am.

I already posted a general reply, but to this I must say, I feel the same about your philosophy of discipline - I am sick of hearing what are supposed to Child Care Professionals insinuate that they prefer to see a child spanked than treated with dignity. Even if you feel that way, perhaps you oughtta keep it to yourself, as you give parents the idea that ALL providers are like YOU....

I knew I should have avoided this topic, as you always get yourself in such a rage over anybody having even a the slightest bit of a difference in opinion - but o'well, I'm not going to let that stop me from sharing my views, as I do use another approach to discipline, and as we have previously discussed, my methods WORK - they'd work for you too if you'd open your mind and give new approaches a chance to work.

[professionalmom]

I never once said show sympathy for the bully or to care more about how he feels than the victim. Of course I would show the victim all of the sympathy and attention - any one with any common sense would do so....it's not a novel idea.

I actually wasn't responding to anything you said. When I saw your response, I had to go looking for what you said because I wasn't even thinking about your post. I was responding to a post that mentioned the victim and it got me thinking about how we often discuss what to do with the bully and focus attention on that. Instead we should separate the bully immediately and for as long as necessary but be discussing all the many ways we can help the victim to feel safe and secure again.

This is the focus in child care and in the criminal justice system - how to deal with the bully, not how to right the wrong or bring the victim some sense of security. So it seems like a society problem to me.

If we are talking about a minor incident I do make the bully go to the victim, apologize, explain why it was wrong, that it will not happen again, and ask if (s)he can hug the victim to show that the bully means what (s)he says. However, the child in the OP is WAY beyond this.

[Crystal]

sorry about that promom....I saw that you had quoted nannyde's response to me and just assumed you were referring to me....my bad

[Crystal]

And, I agree, the child in the OP is WAY beyond what you describe. There needs to be something done, but as has been discussed, time-out clearly is not working.

[Former Teacher]

Which is worse, having a child sit where he isn't hurting someone or having him sit for 6 minutes (which I don't believe is long enough) and then have him go back to the group and once again hurt someone? I had him sitting quietly and calmly and then when I decided he was calm enough I had him color. I may terminate him. But I am terminating an entire family then. Which ****s. To me, it is a lose lose situation. I have tried the talking route, but this little boy does not care. He knows the rules and can repeat them back, but he just continues to misbehave. He has the same issues at school and at home I think he is just pretty much lost in the shuffle. He gets all kinds of attention here, but also receives discipline.

You need to terminate him and terminate him NOW. Yes you will lose another family but don't be like certain providers out there that see only green dollar signs in front them. Think of the other children in care as well. You did your best with this beast..now its time to think of you, your family, and the other children.

[fctjc1979]

I think in this case, the only real consequence that will work is another child finally having enough and giving him a NATURAL consequence - which is a hit back or a loss of friendship (usually the former works best) Now, I would never TELL another child to do this, but I certainly wouldn't stop it either.

OR, try to get him on your side....make him a helper......he helps take care of the little ones by getting you the diapers, wiping hands, etc,, he helps you clean up, he helps you set the table, you BECOME his shadow and he will not have opportunity to hurt anyone else.

Crystal, while I've not always agreed with everything you've said, I could always at least respect what you said as not being just straight up wrong, but I just not sure I can do that this time. For the first part about natural consequences, I'm all for letting natural consequences being the teacher, but to say that another kid disciplining this child is the only thing that will work is a cop-out. I'm hoping you didn't actually mean that and just wrote it that way for emphasis or something. I know that's a possibility.

As for the second part, I can agree to disagree with you on this one just like I have in the past. I happen to think that getting to help the teacher is a reward rather than a punishment. It tells the kid that you trust them to be a big boy, which he is not if he's hurting other kids. But I do understand what you mean about keeping him close so you can try to prevent him from hurting someone else.

[judytrickett]

I already posted a general reply, but to this I must say, I feel the same about your philosophy of discipline - I am sick of hearing what are supposed to Child Care Professionals insinuate that they prefer to see a child spanked than treated with dignity. Even if you feel that way, perhaps you oughtta keep it to yourself, as you give parents the idea that ALL providers are like YOU....

I knew I should have avoided this topic, as you always get yourself in such a rage over anybody having even a the slightest bit of a difference in opinion - but o'well, I'm not going to let that stop me from sharing my views, as I do use another approach to discipline, and as we have previously discussed, my methods WORK - they'd work for you too if you'd open your mind and give new approaches a chance to work.

Geese, I leave the house for a few hours and look what's happened.

BTW...the bolded part? I SEE how this "works" all around me. I "see" how this approach of yours works when a child behaves all day in MY care but hits and kicks at their parents when they show up. I "SEE" the kids who toss garbage on the ground and approached about it by an adult act out with beligerent, rude comebacks. I "SEE" how many hours in a day are spend in school classrooms on behaviour problems rather than teaching.

Yep, what you claim "works" I can "SEE" all around me.

It doesn't work. It never has worked. It won't work in the future.

ANd you know what, I COMMEND NannyDe and profressional mom for having the BALLS to openly say what they think. Because it is sooo not a popular view. It would be MUCH easier to just crawl back into their little lives and not bother to post anything and get flamed for it. But instead they do.

Nannyde......Just keep telling the truth. Keep telling the TRUTH.

[professionalmom]

sorry about that promom....I saw that you had quoted nannyde's response to me and just assumed you were referring to me....my bad

No problem. I just didn't want you to think I was directing anything at you. But you are right about the 45 minutes, I think. The rule of thumb is 1 min per year of age, so 45 minutes might get us in trouble here in MI.

[Crystal]

Crystal, while I've not always agreed with everything you've said, I could always at least respect what you said as not being just straight up wrong, but I just not sure I can do that this time. For the first part about natural consequences, I'm all for letting natural consequences being the teacher, but to say that another kid disciplining this child is the only thing that will work is a cop-out. I'm hoping you didn't actually mean that and just wrote it that way for emphasis or something. I know that's a possibility.

As for the second part, I can agree to disagree with you on this one just like I have in the past. I happen to think that getting to help the teacher is a reward rather than a punishment. It tells the kid that you trust them to be a big boy, which he is not if he's hurting other kids. But I do understand what you mean about keeping him close so you can try to prevent him from hurting someone else.

Thanks for your respectful and thoughtful reply.

Let me clarify....I would NEVER have a child or a tell a child to fight back...but if they do, then maybe they are sending a message to the bully, to not mess with them again. I would not stop that, UNLESS it got out of hand. I know in the past when I was bullied, that when I finally stood up for myself, it never happened again.

I do agree that the helping could be seen as a reward in some cases, BUT, trust me, a child gets SICK OF IT, when they are following along with the teacher all day for several days.

[Crystal]

Geese, I leave the house for a few hours and look what's happened.

BTW...the bolded part? I SEE how this "works" all around me. I "see" how this approach of yours works when a child behaves all day in MY care but hits and kicks at their parents when they show up. I "SEE" the kids who toss garbage on the ground and approached about it by an adult act out with beligerent, rude comebacks. I "SEE" how many hours in a day are spend in school classrooms on behaviour problems rather than teaching.

Yep, what you claim "works" I can "SEE" all around me.

It doesn't work. It never has worked. It won't work in the future.

ANd you know what, I COMMEND NannyDe and profressional mom for having the BALLS to openly say what they think. Because it is sooo not a popular view. It would be MUCH easier to just crawl back into their little lives and not bother to post anything and get flamed for it. But instead they do.

Nannyde......Just keep telling the truth. Keep telling the TRUTH.

Maybe it's something with the water in Canada ::...I just DO NOT see this with the kids I care for.....of course I have families who work with me, because I work with them. We are all on the same page, exact the same forms of "disicpline" and their kids are great. Sorry if that doesn't happen for you, but for me, it does.

Please, tell me Judy, why is it okay for you all to have YOUR opinions about how things should be done, but it's not okay for those of us with diferring ideas and views? It never fails, if I even mention the thought of alternative methods, you all get on the bandwagon and blast any point of view that's not yours.

[Former Teacher]

Please, tell me Judy, why is it okay for you all to have YOUR opinions about how things should be done, but it's not okay for those of us with diferring ideas and views? It never fails, if I even mention the thought of alternative methods, you all get on the bandwagon and blast any point of view that's not yours.

With ALL due respect to my fellow colleagues: I totally agree with you Crystal. There are certain members on this forum, not naming names as there are a few, that are on here that I often wonder how they even stay in business with some of the views and beliefs they have.

I just sometimes sit back and keep things to myself

[professionalmom]

ANd you know what, I COMMEND NannyDe and profressional mom for having the BALLS to openly say what they think. Because it is sooo not a popular view. It would be MUCH easier to just crawl back into their little lives and not bother to post anything and get flamed for it. But instead they do.

Nannyde......Just keep telling the truth. Keep telling the TRUTH.

Actually, I once saw a statistic that showed that most parents agree that a swat from time to time (not daily or weekly), is ok and does not constitute abuse and that most have resorted to it at least once. I just did a quick Google search and found an article in the Wall Street Journal about Spanking making a comeback (2000): http://www.nospank.net/journal.htm. I'm sure it only would take an hour or so to accumulate a novel's worth of data on this. Just Google "how many parents spank" or something like that.

So ... I honestly think that many parents know that time-out does not ALWAYS work for ALL children and that some do need a swat once in a great while. But since society has made them out to be vicious, vile, abusive animals who shouldn't be allowed to be in the presence of ANY child, let alone allowed to procreate, most of these parents who hold the same view as Nannyde and I (and I think Judy) keep their mouths shut for fear they may get their children taken away. So we are letting a radical few control the masses with fear-mongering. But I refuse to stand by and let the maniacs run the asylum. It's so strange that here in the US, we let the minority beliefs control the majority because the minority (I'm not talking race - just the minority belief system) groups use fear to control the majority. If you are in the majority, stand up, get a backbone, or this country will go to h*** in a hand basket. Who do you want changing YOUR diapers when your 80 and in a nursing home? The child who never had REAL consequences for his actions and thinks changing your Depends is gross and beneath him OR the child who learned about respect for elders, control over his own our impulses, and has a sense of duty to others?

FYI - There are extremes in any case or any topic. When it comes to discipline of children, you can be too extreme (abusive - which I would beat the tar out of anyone who ABUSED a child!) to too lenient, which only teaches them to continue in their delusional, ego-centric world of instant gratification at the expense of all other people and without any sympathy or empathy. Our prisons are crowded with people from both extremes. We need the middle ground. It's not always so black and white. There are many shades of gray and we need to understand that gray is not evil. There is a compromise somewhere in the middle and we need to find it.

[judytrickett]

With ALL due respect to my fellow colleagues: I totally agree with you Crystal. There are certain members on this forum, not naming names as there are a few, that are on here that I often wonder how they even stay in business with some of the views and beliefs they have.

I just sometimes sit back and keep things to myself

Oh, no, by all means, name names.

I stay in business because the kids and parents respect what I do. It's not complicated.

Crystal said: Please, tell me Judy, why is it okay for you all to have YOUR opinions about how things should be done, but it's not okay for those of us with diferring ideas and views? It never fails, if I even mention the thought of alternative methods, you all get on the bandwagon and blast any point of view that's not yours.

Isn't that exactly what you are doing when you pipe up with YOUR view and tell me, or others WE are incorrect? A bit of a double standard there.

Besides, it seems to me lots of people debate the topic at hand but you debate the people. YOU make it personal.

Forums ARE essential debate hot spots. That's why they're here. What good would it do if everyone came on and all smiled and blew sunshine and roses out their asses and agreed, agreed, agreed?

[judytrickett]

So ... I honestly think that many parents know that time-out does not ALWAYS work for ALL children and that some do need a swat once in a great while. But since society has made them out to be vicious, vile, abusive animals who shouldn't be allowed to be in the presence of ANY child, let alone allowed to procreate, most of these parents who hold the same view as Nannyde and I (and I think Judy) keep their mouths shut for fear they may get their children taken away. So we are letting a radical few control the masses with fear-mongering. .

WELL SAID!

Most people CARE what others think. Most people are afraid to be different or say what needs to be said. In short, most people don't want to jeopardize their standing in society by alienating others. I say SCREW that! Who the hell cares about being popular when you have to live in fear of what others might think, say or do? What kind of a life is that anyway?

And as for the DEPENDS remark?? That is something I have addressed before too. THESE kids are gonna be taking care of ME one day. I want them to be well-rounded, respectful people.