How Long Can You Put a Child in a Time Out

[Former Teacher]

For my toddlers, if they get 3 (or so) timeouts, I separate them from the others by putting them in the superyard to play, or at the table or high chair.

That's a big no no in the best eyes of TX licensing (NOT!) You cannot place a child in the table (we had that table that had the chairs inside the table) nor could you place the child in a high chair. These were for eating places ONLY. Yeah right. Likewise with a crib, to used for sleeping only.

Once we had a girl who bit all the time. We had her in the chair at the table and we gave her toys etc. However we were playing protecting the other children because this girl was FAST. No matter what you did or how you shadowed her she did it. She was picking up toys once and the caregiver was right there by her holding her hand and another child went to place a toy on a shelf and yep she bit him on the arm.

We had to keep this child isolated because she was SO bad. But state said no. Eventually mom got tired of hearing how her days were and pulled her out.

[judytrickett]

I have the philosophy that I make the kid use THEIR brain rather than me wracking MY brain to figure out what to do. Asking questions is pretty easy (most of the time). To do this method, though, you have to be able to look a kid in the eye while they are crying and still be able to keep going with the questions until you know they get it. There's that backbone again!

Yep, that and the preventative discipline work best. I don't have behaviour problems because I don't allow kids to get to the point of a behaviour problem. It's like how when a child first starts with me at 12 mths. My daycare space is in my basement. Half the basement is used. There is a transition piece on the floor that conjoins the two types of flooring present. Therefore, there is a natural progression into what is the daycare space.

When a child starts with me I will go over and physically move them if they walk over the transition piece. And I will do it 1000 times if necessary. There is not ONE single time I allow them to get away with it. They must STAY on the wood floor IN the daycare space when we are in the basement.

It sounds like this is a mute point but it's not. Because right from day ONE, even if they are crying and suffering from seperation anxiety I am showing that that the RULES and the EXPECTATIONS are there. I'm not kidding around. Your tears will get you no where if you are in the position of not following the rules and living up to the expectations. The same goes for hitting, biting, and all around bad behaviour. Really bad kids that start later in care will go to the Guantanamo detention area (playpen in seperate room) if need be until they understand.

So, something as simple as forcing them to comply to staying on the one side of a transition piece of flooring sets the mind set that I mean what I say and I say what I mean.

[AmandasFCC]

I totally agree that t/o just doesn't work for many kids, but what else is there? Yes, we can get in their face and use the firm voice and intimidation tactics, but what is the actual consequence that should be used?

I take things away. If you can't behave appropriately, you lose the right to fun. I have a 7 and 10 year old pair of siblings who, together, drive me absolutely mental. When they get out of line, they come inside, sit across the room from each other and read for the rest of the time they're with me. Could be half an hour, could be 2 hours, I don't care, but they get the point. And, of course, they get a stern lecture about appropriate behaviour.

[fctjc1979]

Yep, that and the preventative discipline work best. I don't have behaviour problems because I don't allow kids to get to the point of a behaviour problem. It's like how when a child first starts with me at 12 mths. My daycare space is in my basement. Half the basement is used. There is a transition piece on the floor that conjoins the two types of flooring present. Therefore, there is a natural progression into what is the daycare space.

When a child starts with me I will go over and physically move them if they walk over the transition piece. And I will do it 1000 times if necessary. There is not ONE single time I allow them to get away with it. They must STAY on the wood floor IN the daycare space when we are in the basement.

It sounds like this is a mute point but it's not. Because right from day ONE, even if they are crying and suffering from seperation anxiety I am showing that that the RULES and the EXPECTATIONS are there. I'm not kidding around. Your tears will get you no where if you are in the position of not following the rules and living up to the expectations. The same goes for hitting, biting, and all around bad behaviour. Really bad kids that start later in care will go to the Guantanamo detention area (playpen in seperate room) if need be until they understand.

So, something as simple as forcing them to comply to staying on the one side of a transition piece of flooring sets the mind set that I mean what I say and I say what I mean.

I totally agree with you there. So many of the "accepted" discipline techniques are reactive rather than preventative. I love how you physically set up the accepted area in order to set up mental boundaries for the kids that establish who's boss. I know some people think this is cruel but how are kids supposed to feel comfortable in their environment if they don't have a clear idea of who is in control and clear boundaries? To me this is much kinder than constantly disciplining a kid after the fact.

[professionalmom]

I totally agree with you there. So many of the "accepted" discipline techniques are reactive rather than preventative. I love how you physically set up the accepted area in order to set up mental boundaries for the kids that establish who's boss. I know some people think this is cruel but how are kids supposed to feel comfortable in their environment if they don't have a clear idea of who is in control and clear boundaries? To me this is much kinder than constantly disciplining a kid after the fact.

BINGO! We have a winner! Children WANT, as well as need, structure and discipline. They WANT to know who is in charge. Do any of you remember being 13-18 years old and being asked, "So what do you want to be when you grow up?" Do you remember thinking, "How should I know? I don't even know what the options are?" It's really ridiculous if you think about it. But some idiot thought that children should be allowed to determine, not just their long-term destiny, but their moment-to-moment destiny and make all their own choices. How confusing is that for a child? They are always looking to us - the adults - for direction and guidance. They WANT and NEED for us to be their caregivers, parents, etc, NOT their friends. We are NOT their peers. We are their mentors!

My mother always said discipline begins as soon as they become mobile. And if you have not taken control of them by age 4 or 5, you will never get them to mind you. Sure, I got a couple spanks in my life and I got a lot more hand smacks when I was little, but by the time I was 4-5 years old (probably younger), I KNEW who the boss was and all she had to do was give me the "LOOK" and I would straighten up. I don't think I got any spanks or smacks after age 5, the look was enough. That's awesome parenting!

Also, about time out, what does that really teach in a matter of minutes? Hey, if the "experts" think it's so great and truly effective, why don't we use that for criminals. If you kill someone when you're 23, you get 23 minutes in time-out. If you rape someone when you're 30, you get 30 minutes in time-out. Maybe I'm on to something! Hey we could eliminate prisons all together and save taxpayers BILLIONS of dollars!! (FYI - I am being EXTREMELY sarcastic).

Oh, and here's a little extra info. My degree is in criminal justice so I went to college with a bunch of police officers, correctional officers, probation officers, etc. I have been in MANY conversations with them and have done a ton of research on the link between behaviors exhibited in young children, the discipline they received and the risk of spending time in prison. Here's the overwhelming result - when young children are disciplined with "soft" techniques or (the other extreme) abused, their risk goes up exponentially. Basically, a spanking (or swat) here and there is beneficial when they are young. Too much or too little and you get problems.

Spanking, as with any other discipline technique, when used too often, has the reverse effect. It's best when it is used sparingly and for the worst offenses. I have also used hand smacks for my daughter, but again only for the worst offenses. There IS a difference between the occasional swat and a "whooping" or abuse.

No, we cannot spank the DC kids, but I do like the "questions" method. Although it sounds like an interrogation, but hey, I would rather a child experience the trauma of a 10 minute interrogation at age 3 (which they probably won't remember), than experience a 12 hour murder interrogation at age 23. Oh, wait, I forgot, we're going to use the time-out method from now on!

I once suggested that a former coworker strip her children's bedrooms of everything except their beds, sheets, clothing, and books. No tv, no video games, no dvds / dvd player. Nothing else. They were out of control and telling each other "I hate you. I wish you were dead." So I told her the next time they (ages 8 & 10) do this, ground them to their rooms for the entire weekend. The only reason to open their bedroom doors were to go potty, shower, or go to church. And they would eat in their rooms (just like a prisoner in his cell). What do you think happened that first weekend? Grounded. But they sure had a brand new attitude when they were "released".

My parents figured out I opened my Christmas presents early. I was 12. So they took the TV out of the box, put cans of beets, spinach, and other veggies kids hate back in it (to give it weight) along with a long note explaining how disappointed they were and that I was grounded for a month. I opened that package with grandparents, my brothers, and my brothers' girlfriends present. I was so humiliated, I ran to my room and closed the door, sobbing. But I sure learned my lesson! It has never happened again and I'm in my mid 30's!

[originalkat]

BINGO! We have a winner! Children WANT, as well as need, structure and discipline. They WANT to know who is in charge. Do any of you remember being 13-18 years old and being asked, "So what do you want to be when you grow up?" Do you remember thinking, "How should I know? I don't even know what the options are?" It's really ridiculous if you think about it. But some idiot thought that children should be allowed to determine, not just their long-term destiny, but their moment-to-moment destiny and make all their own choices. How confusing is that for a child? They are always looking to us - the adults - for direction and guidance. They WANT and NEED for us to be their caregivers, parents, etc, NOT their friends. We are NOT their peers. We are their mentors!

My mother always said discipline begins as soon as they become mobile. And if you have not taken control of them by age 4 or 5, you will never get them to mind you. Sure, I got a couple spanks in my life and I got a lot more hand smacks when I was little, but by the time I was 4-5 years old (probably younger), I KNEW who the boss was and all she had to do was give me the "LOOK" and I would straighten up. I don't think I got any spanks or smacks after age 5, the look was enough. That's awesome parenting!

Also, about time out, what does that really teach in a matter of minutes? Hey, if the "experts" think it's so great and truly effective, why don't we use that for criminals. If you kill someone when you're 23, you get 23 minutes in time-out. If you rape someone when you're 30, you get 30 minutes in time-out. Maybe I'm on to something! Hey we could eliminate prisons all together and save taxpayers BILLIONS of dollars!! (FYI - I am being EXTREMELY sarcastic).

Oh, and here's a little extra info. My degree is in criminal justice so I went to college with a bunch of police officers, correctional officers, probation officers, etc. I have been in MANY conversations with them and have done a ton of research on the link between behaviors exhibited in young children, the discipline they received and the risk of spending time in prison. Here's the overwhelming result - when young children are disciplined with "soft" techniques or (the other extreme) abused, their risk goes up exponentially. Basically, a spanking (or swat) here and there is beneficial when they are young. Too much or too little and you get problems.

Spanking, as with any other discipline technique, when used too often, has the reverse effect. It's best when it is used sparingly and for the worst offenses. I have also used hand smacks for my daughter, but again only for the worst offenses. There IS a difference between the occasional swat and a "whooping" or abuse.

No, we cannot spank the DC kids, but I do like the "questions" method. Although it sounds like an interrogation, but hey, I would rather a child experience the trauma of a 10 minute interrogation at age 3 (which they probably won't remember), than experience a 12 hour murder interrogation at age 23. Oh, wait, I forgot, we're going to use the time-out method from now on!

I once suggested that a former coworker strip her children's bedrooms of everything except their beds, sheets, clothing, and books. No tv, no video games, no dvds / dvd player. Nothing else. They were out of control and telling each other "I hate you. I wish you were dead." So I told her the next time they (ages 8 & 10) do this, ground them to their rooms for the entire weekend. The only reason to open their bedroom doors were to go potty, shower, or go to church. And they would eat in their rooms (just like a prisoner in his cell). What do you think happened that first weekend? Grounded. But they sure had a brand new attitude when they were "released".

My parents figured out I opened my Christmas presents early. I was 12. So they took the TV out of the box, put cans of beets, spinach, and other veggies kids hate back in it (to give it weight) along with a long note explaining how disappointed they were and that I was grounded for a month. I opened that package with grandparents, my brothers, and my brothers' girlfriends present. I was so humiliated, I ran to my room and closed the door, sobbing. But I sure learned my lesson! It has never happened again and I'm in my mid 30's!

Very interesting research you have done and it doesnt surprise me at all. I dont know why people think "soft discipline" is the way! Oh ya, it's because thats what the "experts" say.::
I also use the questioning tecnique. Sometimes I tend to lecture though. I like what you have said about making them do the talking(thinking).

[nannyde]

Also, about time out, what does that really teach in a matter of minutes? Hey, if the "experts" think it's so great and truly effective, why don't we use that for criminals. If you kill someone when you're 23, you get 23 minutes in time-out. If you rape someone when you're 30, you get 30 minutes in time-out. Maybe I'm on to something! Hey we could eliminate prisons all together and save taxpayers BILLIONS of dollars!! (FYI - I am being EXTREMELY sarcastic)

I love love love me some Professional Mom posts. ::::::::

[HeatherB]

We never do more time then their age. If their three, three minutes time out.

This is what I have learned through training and classes...HOWEVER the minutes dont start until they are not throwing a fit and are not playing around.

I feel that 45 minutes is by far tooo harsh... you done and lost this boys attention span. He done and forgot why he was in timeout... even at the age of 6.

REDIRECTION redirection rediraction is a goal and POSTIVE reinformcement s key too... try to catch him when he is doing good. This should and will change his ways...It will however take time.... and patience.

[Crystal]

This is what I have learned through training and classes...HOWEVER the minutes dont start until they are not throwing a fit and are not playing around.

I feel that 45 minutes is by far tooo harsh... you done and lost this boys attention span. He done and forgot why he was in timeout... even at the age of 6.

REDIRECTION redirection rediraction is a goal and POSTIVE reinformcement s key too... try to catch him when he is doing good. This should and will change his ways...It will however take time.... and patience.

Thank you.

[Crystal]

If my child was EVER put in time out for 45 minutes, there would be a call to licensing. If you cannot deal with the behavior, terminate the parent/provider contract.

[fctjc1979]

No, we cannot spank the DC kids, but I do like the "questions" method. Although it sounds like an interrogation, but hey, I would rather a child experience the trauma of a 10 minute interrogation at age 3 (which they probably won't remember), than experience a 12 hour murder interrogation at age 23. Oh, wait, I forgot, we're going to use the time-out method from now on!

It is a lot like an interrogation only I'm not trying to change their mind about what happened or using bright lights or anything else. Here is some sample questions I use:

What did you just do?
Why did you just do that?
Do your parents allow you to do that?
What would your parents say about this?
Why would you choose to respond by doing something you know you aren’t supposed to do?
Was that a smart/kind/friendly/etc choice?
Why is (action) wrong?
What did we say the other day about (action)?
How do you think this made (other child) feel?
Would you like to feel this way?
Would you like for someone to do to you what you just did to (other child)?
How do I trust that you won’t do this again?
Do you understand why what you did lost my trust?
What are you going to do to prove to me that I don’t have to worry about you doing this again?
What do you think we should do if you do this again?

These are what I call start up questions. They're the ones I always have in my arsenal. There are also the follow up questions that are dependant on their answers to other questions.

I always kind of think of it as a sort of reverse lecture. Instead of me lecturing the kid, I'm having them lecture themselves by having them think about what they think I might be thinking.

I'll never forget the day one of my dcg told a new dcb "Don't do that!! You're going to make her make you talk to her!!!!"

[sahm2three]

If my child was EVER put in time out for 45 minutes, there would be a call to licensing. If you cannot deal with the behavior, terminate the parent/provider contract.

Which is worse, having a child sit where he isn't hurting someone or having him sit for 6 minutes (which I don't believe is long enough) and then have him go back to the group and once again hurt someone? I had him sitting quietly and calmly and then when I decided he was calm enough I had him color. I may terminate him. But I am terminating an entire family then. Which ****s. To me, it is a lose lose situation. I have tried the talking route, but this little boy does not care. He knows the rules and can repeat them back, but he just continues to misbehave. He has the same issues at school and at home I think he is just pretty much lost in the shuffle. He gets all kinds of attention here, but also receives discipline.

[nannyde]

If my child was EVER put in time out for 45 minutes, there would be a call to licensing. If you cannot deal with the behavior, terminate the parent/provider contract.

He is SIX. He can go to Chucky Cheese for 45 minutes. He can go to a movie that is an hour and a half. He can play Ninetendo for 45 minutes.

What the HECK do you think is wrong with him having a time out for 45 minutes? Why is it that it's okay for kids to do fun and pleasurable things for hours on end but they have to have consequences be litterally minutes? That is INSANE.

Do you think when he gets put in the office at school they have him put his head on a desk for six minutes? Do you think the process of disciplining him at school is limited to six minutes?

It is rediculous. It really is. At some point we HAVE to start expecting these kids who are VIOLENT to have CONSEQUENCES that MATTER to them.

This is his story:

He is always hitting with either his hands, throwing toys, anything.

And low and behold, right away this morning he pummeled my son.

but it is constant every day.

This kid put his HANDS on the providers son. He was a guest in someones house and in the public and he HIT her child. That is INSANE. He needs to have a VERY VERY VERY serious consequence that affects his happiness for a significant amount of time. He needs to have serious limitations on ANY activity he does FOR WEEKS that puts any other child at risk. Whether he goes to her day care or ANYWHERE else the adults need to be LIMITING his world very very small everywhere he goes for a SIGNIFICANT... and I mean WEEKS... amount of time.

He needs to EARN the privledge of being around other children by having excellent consistent behavior over a significant amount of time. You can't do that in six minutes.

ENOUGH

ENOUGH

ENOUGH

I'm sick of it. I really am.

[professionalmom]

He is SIX. He can go to Chucky Cheese for 45 minutes. He can go to a movie that is an hour and a half. He can play Ninetendo for 45 minutes.

What the HECK do you think is wrong with him having a time out for 45 minutes? Why is it that it's okay for kids to do fun and pleasurable things for hours on end but they have to have consequences be litterally minutes? That is INSANE.

Do you think when he gets put in the office at school they have him put his head on a desk for six minutes? Do you think the process of disciplining him at school is limited to six minutes?

It is rediculous. It really is. At some point we HAVE to start expecting these kids who are VIOLENT to have CONSEQUENCES that MATTER to them.

This is his story:

He is always hitting with either his hands, throwing toys, anything.

And low and behold, right away this morning he pummeled my son.

but it is constant every day.

This kid put his HANDS on the providers son. He was a guest in someones house and in the public and he HIT her child. That is INSANE. He needs to have a VERY VERY VERY serious consequence that affects his happiness for a significant amount of time. He needs to have serious limitations on ANY activity he does FOR WEEKS that puts any other child at risk. Whether he goes to her day care or ANYWHERE else the adults need to be LIMITING his world very very small everywhere he goes for a SIGNIFICANT... and I mean WEEKS... amount of time.

He needs to EARN the privledge of being around other children by having excellent consistent behavior over a significant amount of time. You can't do that in six minutes.

ENOUGH

ENOUGH

ENOUGH

I'm sick of it. I really am.

Very excellent point. What about the injured child? Why in the world are we so concerned about the "feelings" of the perpetrator and never mention the INJURED child. At some point, children NEED to learn that there are consequences for their actions. And the bottom line is that the injured child needs to know that the adults charged with protecting him/her (especially mom or dad) will protect him or her and love him/her enough to right the wrong. Otherwise the injured child will only learn that (s)he who bullies will always be the winner and get away with the bad behavior. The focus needs to be on righting the wrong, healing the injured, and ensuring the safety of others, while having a stiff penalty for the abusive child.

If we put that same focus on domestic violence it would go like this: man beats his wife, the judge calmly explains why this behavior is wrong, puts the man in time-out, then expects the man and woman to go back to living together in harmony. Would that be acceptable to any of the proponents of "soft discipline"? Would you like to be that woman? Heck, no! Violence is unacceptable, no matter what the age. Period! I am really tired of people making excuses for the behavior and treating violent people (no matter what the age) with kid gloves as if the bully will be forever destroyed if (s)he has to be held accountable, all the while ignoring the poor victim who is supposed to "understand". BULL!!

You hit my child, your contract will be terminated ASAP and your parents will come and get you immediately. Until they get there, you will be in time out. Period. I am NOT going to endanger MY child because of a violent bully! And, yes, that has happened. And the injury was bad enough that it very well could have caused brain damage (hard, wood block on my 10 mth old DD's head, barely missing her soft spot!).

Sorry, but the injured child gets MY sympathy, not the bully. The violent child will be quickly removed from the situation and I will "baby" the victim. Parents will be called. Period. I focus on the victim! They are the one who deserves the coddling, not the bully!

[Crystal]

I agree that 6 minutes of time-out is pointless. I agree that he is out of control and it is not acceptable and something HAS to be done about it.
The thing is EVEN 45 minutes of time out is not going to work for this child (or any child, as was pointed out previously, he doesn't even remember why he is there, or he doesn't care)

I think in this case, the only real consequence that will work is another child finally having enough and giving him a NATURAL consequence - which is a hit back or a loss of friendship (usually the former works best) Now, I would never TELL another child to do this, but I certainly wouldn't stop it either.

I also think that excluding from playing with the other children is okay, but sitting in time-out is pointless. Give him something constructive to do, away from the rest of the group. He cannot play nice, he cannot play with the other kids. Tell him, plain and clear, if he cannot play nice the other children don't WANT to play with him, so he needs to play alone....that getsold to a 6 year old fast. OR, try to get him on your side....make him a helper......he helps take care of the little ones by getting you the diapers, wiping hands, etc,, he helps you clean up, he helps you set the table, you BECOME his shadow and he will not have opportunity to hurt anyone else.

MOM needs to get on board here too....besides time out, what is she doing? Does he have a special toy/game/privilege at home that she can take away if he does not behave....for instance a favorite show he gets to watch or video game he plays when he goes home? If so, she needs to tell him, if you do not behave at DC you will lose____________ tonight. and she needs to FOLLOW THROUGH.

On another note, has he been referred for special needs diagnosis? There may be an underlying issue that seriously needs to be addressed. I am SO not one for meds, but in some cases, when there is EXTREMELY volatile behavior, there needs to be some sort of intervention.

I WOULD NOT coddle him and give him his way, but I WOULD NOT put him in a 45minute time out, or ANY time out at all.

And, FTR I would never have allowed it to go on this long - it's a risk to the other children in care and your business as a whole. I know it ****s, but it could seriously compromise your livelihood if something happens to another child in care.