At My Wit's End! This Behavior Has Got to Stop!

[Crystal]

I agree Jen...I think that there are many methods that CAN and DO work - and I feel that if YOUR way is working for YOU, then keep it up, but don't condemn ME because I use a different method - a method that happens to work just as well for ME as your method does for YOU. I have never understood why it has to be an argument, why other providers try to tell me that my way is wrong when it works for me and my group....and those providers can try to tell me that it doesn't work for ME, but I am here day in and day out and see firsthand that it does work. I have been doing it this way for 13 years, and I am not burntout or stressed out, and I LOVE my work with children just as much (or more) than when I first started.

(not you Jen, just a general YOU)

[jen]

I agree Jen...I think that there are many methods that CAN and DO work - and I feel that if YOUR way is working for YOU, then keep it up, but don't condemn ME because I use a different method - a method that happens to work just as well for ME as your method does for YOU. I have never understood why it has to be an argument, why other providers try to tell me that my way is wrong when it works for me and my group....and those providers can try to tell me that it doesn't work for ME, but I am here day in and day out and see firsthand that it does work. I have been doing it this way for 13 years, and I am not burntout or stressed out, and I LOVE my work with children just as much (or more) than when I first started.

(not you Jen, just a general YOU)

Absolutely!

[nannyde]

I agree Jen...I think that there are many methods that CAN and DO work - and I feel that if YOUR way is working for YOU, then keep it up, but don't condemn ME because I use a different method - a method that happens to work just as well for ME as your method does for YOU. I have never understood why it has to be an argument, why other providers try to tell me that my way is wrong when it works for me and my group....and those providers can try to tell me that it doesn't work for ME, but I am here day in and day out and see firsthand that it does work. I have been doing it this way for 13 years, and I am not burntout or stressed out, and I LOVE my work with children just as much (or more) than when I first started.

(not you Jen, just a general YOU)

Yes but you perceive people are condemning YOU when in fact they are just explaining their position on an aspect of your methods.

Case in point:

I said: It's a sign of weakness.. imho ... to discipline at their level.

You said: I also do not see it as a "sign of weakness" (thanks for the pot shot BTW) to get down to eye level when I need to discipline a child.

My saying it was a sign of weakness never even implied that you are weak. I'm saying that to the child it is a sign of weakness as it would to any other animal in the animal kingdom.

You, of course, turned that into a slam to you and your ways and then took it an extra measure and compared it to how one would treat a dog.

You do this "I'm being condemned" when it didn't have a THING to do with you in the first place. You made it up and went for it and then continue to stomp foot about it ten posts down in the thread. Creating your own chaos for your movement lessens the impact of your message.

[Crystal]

Whatever Nanny, you cannot convince me that your comment was not aimed at me....after all it was directly related to what I said is my way of "disciplining".

I'm done. It clearly is pointless to EVER try to discuss alternative, and DAP, methods of working with children and guiding their behavior with people who are so set in their ways that they will never even consider another point of view.

Have a GREAT day, me and the kids are going out to play in the water.

[fctjc1979]

I don't normally use these techniques, but I think if I were the op I would start doing two things.

1. Start controlling everything you can control. Examples: don't just allow the kids to move from inside to outside, have them line up, maybe even hold hands. Nobody moves until everyone is complying. instead of allowing everyone to dig into the blocks, sit them down with a certain number of blocks for each child. If they don't think those are enough or need a different piece, they are going to have to cooperate with another child. If arguing or fighting breaks out, make all the kids take two steps back away from the toys and look at you. Maybe have them count to ten before returning to their play. These are just a few examples. When the children show up the first day of doing this, explain to the children that you are having to control things you wouldn't normally control because they are showing that they cannot control themselves. Do not allow any free play. With one exception: outdoor play. They sound like they need to expend some energy. Don't take this away as a punishment for a while. They need this one. The downside to this one is that it's going to take extra time and prep work. The kids will rebel at first. The first couple of days are going to be really hard, but it sounds like things are already really hard.

2. start using peer guilt. If one student does something wrong, the whole group has to stop what they are doing. They will need to seperate and sit quietly while you deal with the child that didn't follow the rules. Kids don't like it when everyone knows they are the guilty party that's keeping everyone from having fun. Eventually, the kids may even begin to help keep eachother accountable. They are also less likely to tattle-tale for small offenses because they won't want the whole group to have to stop playing. You will have to do some explaining on this one as well. You can tell the kids that you are not trying to punish the whole group, but that you can't keep an eye on the whole group while you are dealing with the offender. So they will have to seperate and sit quietly. Tell them that this is only until you are sure they can control themselves.

[nannyde]

Whatever Nanny, you cannot convince me that your comment was not aimed at me....after all it was directly related to what I said is my way of "disciplining".

I'm done. It clearly is pointless to EVER try to discuss alternative, and DAP, methods of working with children and guiding their behavior with people who are so set in their ways that they will never even consider another point of view.

Have a GREAT day, me and the kids are going out to play in the water.

Again, this sort of reaction creates chaos and doesn't speak to the message we all have stated: There's more than one way to do this right.

This isn't about YOU. You didn't come up with the idea to get down on kids level to talk to them. People have been trying/using that method for years with animals and humans. It's a very very old concept. It's not special or unique... it just works for you and so you are using it.

My method is very very old too. It's been done since the begining of time. It works for me.

Nobody is saying that you are weak. What part of that can you not understand? I believe that getting down to the child's level when disciplining them is perceived by the CHILD that you and/or your message is weak. I choose to get down at their level when I want to show them that I'm weak/humbled by them. At that moment THEY are the alpha dog because they have shown characteristics that will lend THEM as leaders of their pack. The can be "my" leader and show "me" their way when their way is universally selfless.

Can you get that?

When you "discuss alternative, and DAP, methods of working with children and guiding their behavior" you have to expect that many seasoned, highly experienced, and educated providers are going to do a little stopmin. It's not really something "new" or "unique" or "special". It's A method that's been around for decades. Most likely some version of your current method has been tried and eliminated as an option by those with education and experience. That's all. So what? You do what YOU think is right with YOUR kids and YOUR business. As you gain more experience and age and come into contact with more children from a wider breadth of life you may see it differently... maybe not.

[Crystal]

Quote: Most likely some version of your current method has been tried and eliminated as an option by those with education and experience.

Nanny, I have 13 years experience as a provider, 19 as a parent and an Associates Degree in ECE and Child Development, with 72 college units in ECE/Child Development and a Master Teacher Permit. I am a Mentor teacher for 4 colleges, an Independent Consultant and Environmental Rating Scale Assessor for Head Start and our Local R&R and have had articles published by distinguished journals, Please do not speak to me as if I have no experience or education. I know what I am talking about and have the credentials to back it up.

[nannyde]

Quote: Most likely some version of your current method has been tried and eliminated as an option by those with education and experience.

Nanny, I have 13 years experience as a provider, 19 as a parent and an Associates Degree in ECE and Child Development, with 72 college units in ECE/Child Development and a Master Teacher Permit. I am a Mentor teacher for 4 colleges, an Independent Consultant and Environmental Rating Scale Assessor for Head Start and our Local R&R and have had articles published by distinguished journals, Please do not speak to me as if I have no experience or education. I know what I am talking about and have the credentials to back it up.

Ah yeah.. like I said "most likely some version of your current method has been tried and eliminated as an option by THOSE with education and experience.

What's your Bachelor's degree in?

[QualiTcare]

actually, the most experienced and educated in the field of early childhood education practice and recommend what crystal described.

and actually there is only one appropriate way - the developmentally APPROPRIATE way. if it's not being done the appropriate way, then it must be....

inappropriate?

[judytrickett]

actually, the most experienced and educated in the field of early childhood education practice and recommend what crystal described.

and actually there is only one appropriate way - the developmentally APPROPRIATE way. if it's not being done the appropriate way, then it must be....

inappropriate?

Just because something has a stamp of approval from an association, a college, a government does NOT make it the right way or the ONLY way.

Is the only way to treat a headache with Tylenol or like drugs? It must be - it has the stamp of approval from the FDA.

Is the ONLY way to educate kids through 10 months of 6.5 hour days in public or like schools? It must be because it has the stamp of approval from every state government.

BUT....I also know you can rid yourself of a headache with a chiropractic adjustment. I also know lots of kids are educated at home by their mothers.

My point is that there are MANY ways to an end. And all of them can be effective and positive.

If the new ways are so great then why is society the way it is? Kids today have more disrespect, more drug use, more teenage pregnancy than EVER before. And this is NOT due to more access to drugs or less access to birth control. It is because they have been taught by these "gentle discipline" and DAP methods that THEY are in charge. That THEY get to make choices. But kids brains are not set up to make those choices. They just aren't. You are expecting a child to make adult decisions. They can't. That's why they NEED to be disciplined.

All the fancy credentials and letters after one's name don't mean squat if those kids end up rude, impolite and inconsiderate adults.

There is more than one means to an end.

And Crystal...stop being so egocentric. EVERY post is NOT a personal attack about you. We all have more important things to think about in the day then how to personally insult you. Get over yourself.

[Janet]

Ummm...OK

There is no method that is always effective for every child. Sometimes we have to ask for advice and we need to think outside the box to find an effective way to handle behavior that is unnacceptable. To those of you with tons of educational expertise, that's wonderful for you, and it's always cool to learn new approaches to deal with issues. I'm not convinced, however, that a ECE background automatically means that your way is the only appropriate way. I've been a family daycare provider for about 6 years now and I was the toddler lead teacher in the daycare that I worked at before that. I did the 120 hours of classroom hours to get my CDA. I have learned what is considered developmentally appropriate for children at various ages. Sure, in theory the techniques we learn should work to assure that the children make good choices, but in reality, kids are unpredictable. I really don't use the information that I was taught in the class because it really doesn't work for my kids. I have one boy who is the type that will be totally out of control if he thinks that he can get away with it. I have to discipline him in a different way. I have girl who will lash out physically at whoever is in the closest proximity to her when she gets upset. I have to deal with her in a different way. It's all a matter of finding out what is effective for the child. Kids are not made from cookie cutters, so a cookie cutter approach won't necessarily yield the best results for all kids. Nan and Judy make fine points and this is just my opinion, but I find nothing wrong with their approaches. If I had a child that needed daycare while I was working, I wouldn't hesitate to send my child to either of them. I would like the way that they would not just tell me what they think that I would want to hear. They get results and from what I can tell, they have happy kids and happy families. I have happy kids and happy parents, too, and I have it because I go outside of the box for solutions when I have issues. Please don't take this post as an insult for those of you who have the strong ECE background, because it really isn't. I would just like to suggest that maybe trying some unconventional measures (not abusive, by any means!) with difficult children. Again, no disrespect intended.

[judytrickett]

There is no method that is always effective for every child. Sometimes we have to ask for advice and we need to think outside the box to find an effective way to handle behavior that is unnacceptable. To those of you with tons of educational expertise, that's wonderful for you, and it's always cool to learn new approaches to deal with issues. I'm not convinced, however, that a ECE background automatically means that your way is the only appropriate way. I've been a family daycare provider for about 6 years now and I was the toddler lead teacher in the daycare that I worked at before that. I did the 120 hours of classroom hours to get my CDA. I have learned what is considered developmentally appropriate for children at various ages. Sure, in theory the techniques we learn should work to assure that the children make good choices, but in reality, kids are unpredictable. I really don't use the information that I was taught in the class because it really doesn't work for my kids. I have one boy who is the type that will be totally out of control if he thinks that he can get away with it. I have to discipline him in a different way. I have girl who will lash out physically at whoever is in the closest proximity to her when she gets upset. I have to deal with her in a different way. It's all a matter of finding out what is effective for the child. Kids are not made from cookie cutters, so a cookie cutter approach won't necessarily yield the best results for all kids. Nan and Judy make fine points and this is just my opinion, but I find nothing wrong with their approaches. If I had a child that needed daycare while I was working, I wouldn't hesitate to send my child to either of them. I would like the way that they would not just tell me what they think that I would want to hear. They get results and from what I can tell, they have happy kids and happy families. I have happy kids and happy parents, too, and I have it because I go outside of the box for solutions when I have issues. Please don't take this post as an insult for those of you who have the strong ECE background, because it really isn't. I would just like to suggest that maybe trying some unconventional measures (not abusive, by any means!) with difficult children. Again, no disrespect intended.

Janet, I agree. And the other thing I wanted to point out to support what you said was that what we also have to consider is that regardless of what all the text books point out is "appropriate" we have another thing to contend with - parents!

Sometimes textbook approaches in daycare don't work because at home parents are sabatoging that. How many of us have parents who allow their child open manipulation tactics and throw all out fits at their arrival only to be coddled and hugged while hitting their mother in the face?

And stuff like that REALLY happens. So, when you have a child who spends the other half of their life running roughshod over their parents and acting, for lack of a better word, like a spoiled brat OF COURSE different techniques are going to be necessary when they walk in my door. Because not only is is a disservice to allow children to act in that manner it would be impossible to offer a quality environment if five kids where running around in an ego-centric universe, hitting, kicking and screaming when it so suited them. It just doesn't work that way.

[Crystal]

Judy...I am not making this about me, and I NEVER said EVERY post was a personal attack against ME, just Nanny's and now, yours....I am only defending myself from posts that have been in direct response to what I have said. Let's talk about getting over ourselves, when you felt the need, after being brought in by nanny, to inject your personal opinions here when you never visit here UNLESS there is some type of drama brewing, as if YOUR opinion is THE opinion that matters.....so yah, whatever

And, you just said yourself that there is more than one way to deal with situations...I said that from the very beginning, yet no one seemed to notice that, just the fact that I use different methods.....go back and read my posts....not once did I EVER say that anyone else's methods of disicplining is wrong, yet I was met with remarks from nanny and you about how wrong my methods are......

so, go back to bitching at kids, talking **** about parents and leave me alone.

[Crystal]

There is no method that is always effective for every child. Sometimes we have to ask for advice and we need to think outside the box to find an effective way to handle behavior that is unnacceptable. To those of you with tons of educational expertise, that's wonderful for you, and it's always cool to learn new approaches to deal with issues. I'm not convinced, however, that a ECE background automatically means that your way is the only appropriate way. I've been a family daycare provider for about 6 years now and I was the toddler lead teacher in the daycare that I worked at before that. I did the 120 hours of classroom hours to get my CDA. I have learned what is considered developmentally appropriate for children at various ages. Sure, in theory the techniques we learn should work to assure that the children make good choices, but in reality, kids are unpredictable. I really don't use the information that I was taught in the class because it really doesn't work for my kids. I have one boy who is the type that will be totally out of control if he thinks that he can get away with it. I have to discipline him in a different way. I have girl who will lash out physically at whoever is in the closest proximity to her when she gets upset. I have to deal with her in a different way. It's all a matter of finding out what is effective for the child. Kids are not made from cookie cutters, so a cookie cutter approach won't necessarily yield the best results for all kids. Nan and Judy make fine points and this is just my opinion, but I find nothing wrong with their approaches. If I had a child that needed daycare while I was working, I wouldn't hesitate to send my child to either of them. I would like the way that they would not just tell me what they think that I would want to hear. They get results and from what I can tell, they have happy kids and happy families. I have happy kids and happy parents, too, and I have it because I go outside of the box for solutions when I have issues. Please don't take this post as an insult for those of you who have the strong ECE background, because it really isn't. I would just like to suggest that maybe trying some unconventional measures (not abusive, by any means!) with difficult children. Again, no disrespect intended.

I agree, there IS more than one way to "discipline" children, and have said, more than once, that if it works for you, go for it. I just choose to employ different methods than many.

[judytrickett]

Judy...I am not making this about me, and I NEVER said EVERY post was a personal attack against ME, just Nanny's and now, yours....I am only defending myself from posts that have been in direct response to what I have said. Let's talk about getting over ourselves, when you felt the need, after being brought in by nanny, to inject your personal opinions here when you never visit here UNLESS there is some type of drama brewing, as if YOUR opinion is THE opinion that matters.....so yah, whatever

And, you just said yourself that there is more than one way to deal with situations...I said that from the very beginning, yet no one seemed to notice that, just the fact that I use different methods.....go back and read my posts....not once did I EVER say that anyone else's methods of disicplining is wrong, yet I was met with remarks from nanny and you about how wrong my methods are......

so, go back to bitching at kids, talking **** about parents and leave me alone.

Yes, I am easily controlled by people like nannyde. Anyone who has ever read my posts or blog knows I thrive on having the popular opinion.

We seriously need an "insert sarcasm here" smilie.