At My Wit's End! This Behavior Has Got to Stop!

[Crystal]

I rarely sit, squat, or kneel when the dck are in my home unless I'm teaching them something. The kids don't feel like I'm hovering over them. It's more subconscious I think. Kind of like how powerful business people will assert their power by always sitting behind a massive desk and the chairs in front of the desk are smaller than the chair behind the desk so that even taller people will be shorter. Most people don't really notice the setup. They don't consciously feel inferior or small. It's just a way to establish right away who is in charge without constantly having to remind the kids who is in charge. I guess, for me, I think that a lot of discipline techniques are reactive instead of proactive. This is a way for me to establish some discipline before problems arise rather than just waiting for something to happen and then dealing with it. (Although there is that too). I don't know if I explained that well or not. I'm just saying that the kids don't feel bad or scared or intimidated. It's not something they really notice on a conscious level. I don't know if Nannyde handles it the same way.

And, I think this is great, and very effective teaching methods. My response was more in regards to Nanny's method of Hovering over them, when I replied to you, it seemed that you were saying that is the best way....I see you mean it differently though. I also do not want anyone thinking that because of the way I "discipline" that I have out of control kids who do not know the boundaries.....they know them, they understand them, they respect them, I just employ different methods than many to get them to understand and respect them.

[fctjc1979]

I think a lot of it depends on the group of kids we have. I noticed that once my problem family left, I started sitting a lot more when the dcks were here because the ones I have now behave and don't make a habit of pushing boundaries. They know who is in charge and don't try to take over. I don't have to be quite as vigilant so I've relaxed my stance. I think I must be a mix of your style and Nannyde's style.

[judytrickett]

Quote: Nannyde:
When they are being corrected I stand above them. God made them smaller than us for a reason. They respond to being hoovered over just like many other animals in the animal kingdom. It's a sign of dominance and control. We are supposed to be their leaders. We are supposed to be in control.

And to this I must say WOW! Sure we are supposed to be "in control" but you make children sound as though they are not even as worthy as my dog. I think there are much better ways to have control, and being overly controlling and intimidating is not better IMO.

I disagree with you Crystal. Okay, let's take it from the point of the dog. That works for me.

So, my dog gnarls and nips at a child. Do I get down on the dog's level, look in his darling eyes and with my sweetest of sweet voices say, "No, I don't like that. That's not nice"??

HELL NO.....Why? Because the dog won't react to that. Not because the dog is stupid, not because the dog wants to listen...because the dog thinks HE is the boss. And, until you show the dog otherwise that YOU are the alpha dog then he will continue to nip and gnarl.

Kids are no different. Kids constantly strive to control a situation. It's human nature. But is is also human nature for those older and more experienced to realize that boundaries and rules must be set for the young ones who don't understand the real dangers of the world.

Going back to the dog....if a child HIT another child I WOULD stand there hovering over him "treating him like a dog" because that works! There is NO question what my intent is when I stand there ABOVE a child - I am exerting my dominance. And quite frankly I'm okay with that. I'm okay with it because not only did I teach little Johnny that it is NOT okay to hit so he doesn't end up in a maximum detention centre one day, I also spared another child of being hit in the future.

And FTR....I LOVE my dog. So, I don't think it a "bad" thing to compare discipline techniques. Any child should feel loved if treated like I treat my dog. I'm serious.

There is a reason that 30 year olds push out babies and not the other way around.

Nannyde: We DO have commonality between us and the animal kingdom.

Oh, now I get it.....THAT'S why they call me a "bitch"!!!

[fctjc1979]

I think that a lot of people go way too far with explaining things to kids. If kid A just hit kid B for the 5th time that week, do you really need to explain to kid A why hitting is wrong for the 5th time? My kids and my dck get explanations for things that are new. Once they know the rules, I'm not going to insult their intelligence by explaining it again. They know what they did wrong and why it was wrong. Now, I might have a group discussion when everything is calm with all the kids about hitting, or swearing, or ruining other people's stuff not because someone did something wrong, but just for a discussion. And in that case, I ask the kids questions and have them give me the answers. A review of things they already know. But if someone does something they aren't supposed to do, I give consequences, not an explanation. If my parents had constantly given me an explanation every time I did something wrong as a kid (unless it was a first offense, as I said before), I would have honestly thought they had no clue what to do about it and just decided to appear to handle it and drop it. And I probably would have appeared to listen and just let it go in one ear and out the other.

[Janet]

Oh boy...

I can see everyone's point here. Some people have great luck with redirection and positive reinforcement. I love doing that instead of resorting to TO's or taking away priviledges...But I will do what I need to do to have my day run the way that I want it to. Here are some things that I do:

* I won't yell and scream, but I will use my firm voice if I need to. There is no yelling allowed inside my house. Inside voices only. This helps with only needing to say something once. I won't ask a child to do something or not to do something more than once. After that, we have problems.

* If the toys are being used in an abusive way, then I will put every single toy into another room and then there are no toys to play with. Same rules apply if the kids don't pick up their toys when they are done playing. I'll ask once and only once, and if they don't pick up the toys, I put the toys into another room for the day.

* I don't make threats. If I say "dcb, if you keep hitting and taking toys away, then you won't be allowed to play in the sprinkler today (or whatever else may be going on) I had one kid who kept screwing around and it was a party day. Christmas party, I think. I gave him fair warning, but he kept going so I had him sit at the table and just watch the other kids eat cupcakes and watch the Charlie Brown christmas special. He had string cheese, club crackers and juice instead of a cupcake. My kids know that I'll do what I say I'll do. They fought over doll strollers so I donated them all to Holland Rescue Mission and they watched the strollers get taken away. That was the last fight over toys.

* I keep my schedule consistent on a daily basis and that helps them to know what is expected of them.

* I spend a lot of time with them outdoors and that helps alot. I think kids fight less outside.

* Don't be afraid to terminate a kid if they are making things difficult for everyone else. It can make all the differnece in the world. Once my trouble maker was gone, the atmosphere of my daycare changed and it has been awesome!

* Remember that you are in charge. When kids think that they can push you around, believe me, they will. It's great to be diplomatic with children when you can, but sometimes you just have to put your foot down and let them know that this is not a democracy. Don't be afraid of letting the parents know that their child is having problems following rules. Be prepared for the parents to be offended, but what else can you do?

* I don't expect perfection from my daycare kids, but I do expect them to follow my rules. Every kid will mess up now and again, and when they do make sure that you do address it. Also, when a kid leaves for the day (after a rough day) I make sure to tell them this "I love you when you have good days, I love you when you have rough days. That won't change. Ms. Janet always loves you. Don't worry, today was rough, but tommorrow's a new day and you can make different choices." I reassure them that no matter what, they are loved. It really does help even though it can take a long time with some kids.

Those are just my suggestions. By design, I have a very peaceful home that is very calm when we are indoors and we are very playful and we are totally energetic when we are outside. It works for me, it just took a while to figure out a game plan. Good luck!

[TGT09]

I agree with both nannyde and professional mom. People are afraid to discipline kids now. It's ridiculous how much we, as a society, expect kids to figure things out on their own since parents aren't being allowed to be a guide anymore.

It's even harder in child care. I really feel for op. If I were in this situation I would probably terminate the worst offenders and work with the ones that are left. Having problems like this can really ruin the reputation of a daycare and maybe even ruin your business. Nobody is going to want to bring their children somewhere where the kids are going to be learning how to misbehave and be generally unhandleable. You are going to start losing clients and be unable to replace them.

I agree with all of this through and through.

[TGT09]

I use the "get down to their level" in the opposite situations. When a child does something really brilliant, really kind, really sweet, really insightful, really giving, really selflessly, really respectfully... that's when I get down on my knees and look at the eye to eye and tell them they rock my world

I reserve that for honoring the child.

It's very very effective.

When they are being corrected I stand above them. God made them smaller than us for a reason. They respond to being hoovered over just like many other animals in the animal kingdom. It's a sign of dominance and control. We are supposed to be their leaders. We are supposed to be in control.

It's a sign of weakness.. imho ... to discipline at their level. It's a sign of respect to bow down with them when they do extraordinary things. When they show me that they are evolving into universal thinking and universal actions.. then they get my respect and I "kneel" to them, say my appreciations for what they have done and promptly give them a "squeeze the stuffin out of ya" hug.

It's very very effective.

I can't express how much I love this Nanny! I will be implementing this immediately!

[Unregistered]

I can see everyone's point here. Some people have great luck with redirection and positive reinforcement. I love doing that instead of resorting to TO's or taking away priviledges...But I will do what I need to do to have my day run the way that I want it to. Here are some things that I do:

* I won't yell and scream, but I will use my firm voice if I need to. There is no yelling allowed inside my house. Inside voices only. This helps with only needing to say something once. I won't ask a child to do something or not to do something more than once. After that, we have problems.

* If the toys are being used in an abusive way, then I will put every single toy into another room and then there are no toys to play with. Same rules apply if the kids don't pick up their toys when they are done playing. I'll ask once and only once, and if they don't pick up the toys, I put the toys into another room for the day.

* I don't make threats. If I say "dcb, if you keep hitting and taking toys away, then you won't be allowed to play in the sprinkler today (or whatever else may be going on) I had one kid who kept screwing around and it was a party day. Christmas party, I think. I gave him fair warning, but he kept going so I had him sit at the table and just watch the other kids eat cupcakes and watch the Charlie Brown christmas special. He had string cheese, club crackers and juice instead of a cupcake. My kids know that I'll do what I say I'll do. They fought over doll strollers so I donated them all to Holland Rescue Mission and they watched the strollers get taken away. That was the last fight over toys.

* I keep my schedule consistent on a daily basis and that helps them to know what is expected of them.

* I spend a lot of time with them outdoors and that helps alot. I think kids fight less outside.

* Don't be afraid to terminate a kid if they are making things difficult for everyone else. It can make all the differnece in the world. Once my trouble maker was gone, the atmosphere of my daycare changed and it has been awesome!

* Remember that you are in charge. When kids think that they can push you around, believe me, they will. It's great to be diplomatic with children when you can, but sometimes you just have to put your foot down and let them know that this is not a democracy. Don't be afraid of letting the parents know that their child is having problems following rules. Be prepared for the parents to be offended, but what else can you do?

* I don't expect perfection from my daycare kids, but I do expect them to follow my rules. Every kid will mess up now and again, and when they do make sure that you do address it. Also, when a kid leaves for the day (after a rough day) I make sure to tell them this "I love you when you have good days, I love you when you have rough days. That won't change. Ms. Janet always loves you. Don't worry, today was rough, but tommorrow's a new day and you can make different choices." I reassure them that no matter what, they are loved. It really does help even though it can take a long time with some kids.

Those are just my suggestions. By design, I have a very peaceful home that is very calm when we are indoors and we are very playful and we are totally energetic when we are outside. It works for me, it just took a while to figure out a game plan. Good luck!

Thank you! Everyone has a lot of great advice. I realized that we've been repeating ourselves too many times when the children don't listen. Today I started telling them one time to do something, if they didn't listen they were in trouble. What would you do, for example, if a child takes their shoes off outside, you tell them to put them back on, and they continue walking as if you never said a word? I can't make them go inside, because I can't see anyone who is inside while I'm outside. Time-outs work for some, but others are stubborn and refuse to. It turns into a cat and mouse chase, which is plain stupid for an adult to be chasing a child around the playground (which is why I quit that after the first time!). They won't sit when I tell them to, either, though. What would you do in that case?

I agree with you, the outdoors does wonders for a child's behavior! I'm so glad preschool is over for the summer and we can now spend a lot of time outside!

Our schedule is also consistant (and flexible when it needs to be), but we always do the same things in the same order. Even the two yr olds, after they finish lunch, know that they go to the room they nap in, without being told. Actually getting everyone to lay down on their cots and quit playing around and stealing someone else's blankets, grabbing a pillow and wacking someone else with it, etc is another story...

We only allow inside voices also, but what would you do if a 4 or 5 yr old starts yelling for no reason? We have a 2 yr old who does that all the time, but I think he may be autistic. However, I have no understanding for the older ones who I KNOW know better. Usually these two 5 yr olds start yelling and making the most noise at meals and snack. But sometimes it's just randomly throughout the day, even if they seem occupied in what they're playing!

So my main questions were: (1) what would you do if, like in the example I gave, the child ignores you when you tell them to put their shoes back on while everyone's outside? (2) A 5 yr old starts yelling for no reason except to make noise, although they very well know the inside voice rule. (and you try to remove them from the other children, but they won't go to the other room) (3) It's nap time and the child is going around taking the other children's stuff from them, wacking them with it, and refusing to lay down.
I chose those examples because they're the biggest situations when I don't know what the consequence should be.

[judytrickett]

So my main questions were: (1) what would you do if, like in the example I gave, the child ignores you when you tell them to put their shoes back on while everyone's outside?

I would go over, take that child by the arm, look them in the face and TELL them to sit down and put their shoes on. And if they didn't do it I would march them over to the back door, sit their butt down on the ground and tell them they will stay THERE until they put their shoes on. And they can stay there the entire freaking 2 hours we are outside for all I care. That's the CHOICE they made.

(2) A 5 yr old starts yelling for no reason except to make noise, although they very well know the inside voice rule. (and you try to remove them from the other children, but they won't go to the other room) (

They won't go in the other room, huh? Then I would pick them up and physically take them there. Kids need to understand that they don't have a choice. When you tell them to do something they can do it one of two ways:

1. Nicely, by walking over to where you TOLD them to go or,
2. YOU will take them there. And if YOU have to take them there it will NOT be a pleasant experience.

The point is they don't get a choice. They are STILL gonna do what you say regardless of whether they want to play nicely or not. Eventually they will listen becuase it isn't paying off for them as they will realize they have NO control.

3) It's nap time and the child is going around taking the other children's stuff from them, wacking them with it, and refusing to lay down.
I chose those examples because they're the biggest situations when I don't know what the consequence should be.

Oh no. I would stand around the corner and EVERY time that child got up I would go over and not so nicely put them back on their nap mat. Every...single..time.... And I can tell you I would NOT be nice about it.

I DO raise my voice. I DO physically move children. I am in charge. It is MY job to ensure they are safe and secure and learning how to cope in the real world. And following the rules is part of living in the real world.

I don't have behavioural problems. When a child starts with me I make it very clear early on that I expect compliance. And I get it.

I don't know what happened in the world. Every one is do damned afraid to discipline kids. Has anyone got a clue? Has anyone looked around our world and actually LOOKED at kids these days? They are rude and inconsiderate and soooooo EGO-centric. And why is that? Because we are under this stupid notion that they should be treated like adults - adults with choices and free will. IMO you only get choices as an adult because you earned that right by learning what is and what is not acceptable. You followed the rules and were a "good" kid and that meant that you got to choose more as you got older.

Kids don't get to make decisions for 90% or their day. They just don't. That's not their job. That's MY job.

Start using real, hard core discipline. And discipline is ALL about attitude.

Go here and read this: http://www.justthebabysitter.com/201...lpha-dogs.html

You wanna know why providers get burned out? Because they don't control their business. They don't control the policies, the kids, the finances.

Take back control and you will love your business all over again.

[mac60]

Very well said Judy.

[Vesta]

Is there an early intervention service you can call to come out and conduct an observation?
There might be 1 or 2 children here with serious, needing professional help type serious, behavior issues, that the rest of the children are feeding off of.
Kids should not be behaving this way. "Normal" children do not behave this way.
What are their parent's responses?
Some kids just are not able to be properly dealt with by mere mortals and may need more structure (or more of a license and training to restrain) than you are able to provide.
These kids are out there and can make a providers life miserable until they are out and being cared for by highly trained (and better compensated) individuals.
They'll be flipping desks soon enough within the public school system with their little IEPs saying they need an aide within 5 feet of them at all time.
Do you have a straw that will break the camels back?

I went back and read your posts better.
If you really think a child may be autistic the sooner they get services the better.
If the chaos is so bad you're worried they may shut you down, good God, how are you dealing with it everyday?
Parent's can call the state on a center for a child's behavior. If a child hurts someone badly enough they can peg it on the provider for not providing adequate protection for the other children.
Would you rather have someone there because you asked them or because a parent was so concerned because they saw little Bobbie with a chair over his head threatening to hit their little Susie, or because their kid was kicked in the head while laying down on their cot by the same little Bobbie, so they called the state.

[QualiTcare]

And, I think this is great, and very effective teaching methods. My response was more in regards to Nanny's method of Hovering over them, when I replied to you, it seemed that you were saying that is the best way....I see you mean it differently though. I also do not want anyone thinking that because of the way I "discipline" that I have out of control kids who do not know the boundaries.....they know them, they understand them, they respect them, I just employ different methods than many to get them to understand and respect them.

what's that stuff about DAP?

is it the best kept secret that only a few of us know?

i'm beginning to wonder. don't worry, you're right - but you know that.

[Crystal]

what's that stuff about DAP?

is it the best kept secret that only a few of us know?

i'm beginning to wonder. don't worry, you're right - but you know that.

hah! I'm beginning to think so.....and thanks

[MrsCoffee]

What state are you from unregistered?

[jen]

This is a really interesting discussion. Personally, I don't think that there is one form of discipline that works for ALL children. I have kids who respond really well to time-out. They HATE missing anything and those few minutes of watching without participating is sheer torture. I have other kids who would sit in there all day but one "look" and they are back in line without ever having to say a word...I have another child who will not "hear" me unless I am on his level. Although, I am fairly certain that he has some ADHD issues.

In any case, I think it is important to find the right leverage for the individual child.