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nannyde and professional mom are sooo on target!
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[QUOTE=professionalmom;30545] First, what on Earth is "distraction" or "redirection" supposed to do? It does not do anything to teach the child what (s)he did that was inappropriate or what the appropriate reaction or response would be. Let's call it what it is - Ignoring the behavior. Plus, how do you "right" the wrong when the "wrong" involved is that another child was hit? Ignore the behavior and redirect the wrong-doer? What does that teach the victim? That bad behavior gets a new, more interesting toy? [QUOTE]
When redirection is used correctly, it is a very effective tool in guiding children's behavior. You don't just tell a child to go do something else.....you get down to their level, tell them what they are doing is wrong, tell them why it is wrong and why you cannot and will not allow them to do it, and they have a choice: go do A or B or You need to A to move on to B. End of discussion. It DOES work, I use it all the time and I have a wonderful group of children who I truly enjoy spending my days with because they do not have lots of behavior problems.
I am not saying that there shouldn't be other methods of discipline, and I honestly feel to each parent his own - I would never judge a parent that chooses to use more traditional methods of discipline - but as a Child care Provider, who doesn't have the option of more strict methods, giving redirection a chance to work is an option.Comment
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If this works for you and your set of children, then great. However, I have tried this exactly the way you described and they often look at me like I'm an idiot. I can see how this would work for children 3 and up, or possibly for some 2 year olds. However, when we are talking 12-18 month old toddlers, they do not understand. Yet this is the main method given for this age group. Don't get me wrong. I do not use physical punishment. However, I do believe that different children need different methods of discipline. Even the same child may need different methods at different times and for different offenses.
If you look at different topics throughout history, society tends to spot an error and tries to correct it, but ends up over correcting it. The pendulum is constantly swaying from one extreme to another, always trying to find that happy medium. For child discipline, it was once too harsh and even abusive. Now we are so lenient, we are seeing that too creates problems. There has to be some middle ground somewhere.
Also, with the OP and her situation, from what I understood, she has tried all of these "alternative" techniques that are most common and it has not worked with this particular group. I'm sure she feels like she's is fighting a losing battle and the kids are completely out of control. I wish she had more options. But with all the laws and regulations, our (and her) hands are tied. Some people even think a firm tone is mentally abusive. Heaven forbid you raise your voice so you can be heard over the chaotic noise.
We need options for those children that are more strong-willed, for whom redirection and time-out does not work.Comment
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I often find myself wishing I was a bit more inventive when it comes to discipline. For example, I've known a couple for years now that has a wood pile on their property. They don't need the wood. It serves no purpose usually attributed to a pile of wood. It was there when they bought the property. Every once in a while, the wood pile will suddenly be in a different place. The kids explained it to me once. If they do something they are not supposed to do, their job is to move the entire woodpile from one place to another place. When I asked this couple about it, they said that it helps remind the kids that doing the wrong thing rarely gets you what you really want. It's kind of pointless - kind of like the woodpile. It also serves to remind them that doing the wrong thing often results in other people having to pick up the slack, do their job, or otherwise waste their time. Having the child "waste their time" moving a pointless woodpile reminds them that they've wasted other people's time. It's also a way of making sure that the child has to choose how long their punishment lasts. Accept the fact that you did wrong and have to pay the consequences and the job tends to go fast. Being resentful makes you drag your feet and makes the job go slower. This was a disciplinary tool they thought up in two minutes that they've used for years because it works. I wish I could come up with stuff that fast that actually works.
Proverbs 12:1
A reminder to myself when I resist learning something new.Comment
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i agree 100%. if it's multiple children, there's something else going on IMO.
maybe they need more structured activities with more interaction from the adults - or more play time so they can run around and get rid of some of that energy.
talking about the issues during group time could help also. reading books about hitting, biting, etc. and talking about it - that could help.
let them know ur on the lookout for kids doing NICE things and act like it's the best thing in the WORLD when you do! they'll all start trying to be the one caught doing the "right thing."
i'm with crystal - it's not the provider's fault, but there has to be something that can be changed to solve the problem.Comment
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Brilliant technique.I often find myself wishing I was a bit more inventive when it comes to discipline. For example, I've known a couple for years now that has a wood pile on their property. They don't need the wood. It serves no purpose usually attributed to a pile of wood. It was there when they bought the property. Every once in a while, the wood pile will suddenly be in a different place. The kids explained it to me once. If they do something they are not supposed to do, their job is to move the entire woodpile from one place to another place. When I asked this couple about it, they said that it helps remind the kids that doing the wrong thing rarely gets you what you really want. It's kind of pointless - kind of like the woodpile. It also serves to remind them that doing the wrong thing often results in other people having to pick up the slack, do their job, or otherwise waste their time. Having the child "waste their time" moving a pointless woodpile reminds them that they've wasted other people's time. It's also a way of making sure that the child has to choose how long their punishment lasts. Accept the fact that you did wrong and have to pay the consequences and the job tends to go fast. Being resentful makes you drag your feet and makes the job go slower. This was a disciplinary tool they thought up in two minutes that they've used for years because it works. I wish I could come up with stuff that fast that actually works.Comment
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[QUOTE=Crystal;30549][QUOTE=professionalmom;30545] First, what on Earth is "distraction" or "redirection" supposed to do? It does not do anything to teach the child what (s)he did that was inappropriate or what the appropriate reaction or response would be. Let's call it what it is - Ignoring the behavior. Plus, how do you "right" the wrong when the "wrong" involved is that another child was hit? Ignore the behavior and redirect the wrong-doer? What does that teach the victim? That bad behavior gets a new, more interesting toy?One thing I have learned over the years is that there are so many ways to do this job right. That's one of the great things about this career. Providers can have techniques that don't even resemble each other in any way but still end up with great kids.
When redirection is used correctly, it is a very effective tool in guiding children's behavior. You don't just tell a child to go do something else.....you get down to their level, tell them what they are doing is wrong, tell them why it is wrong and why you cannot and will not allow them to do it, and they have a choice: go do A or B or You need to A to move on to B. End of discussion. It DOES work, I use it all the time and I have a wonderful group of children who I truly enjoy spending my days with because they do not have lots of behavior problems.
I am not saying that there shouldn't be other methods of discipline, and I honestly feel to each parent his own - I would never judge a parent that chooses to use more traditional methods of discipline - but as a Child care Provider, who doesn't have the option of more strict methods, giving redirection a chance to work is an option.
My ways are very very different from yours. I don't ever use distraction. I don't get down on the childs level when I'm dealing with them. I always stand above them looking down with my arms crossed and with my facial expression matching my tone.
I don't spend much time on what they did wrong and why it was wrong or why I can't allow it. I think the amount of attention on the child can become the prize for repeat offending.
I also don't praise "good" behavior. I expect good behavior. It is their job to behave well. When I "praise" it's for really good behavior. I praise the kid who's taken one of our expectations and added onto it .. taken it to a higher level than what we expect... THEN I go in for the "Kewl fool.. .I like"
I don't praise them for sitting properly at the table. I don't praise them for picking up toys. I don't do a "clean up" song when they clean. I don't praise them for taking turns. I don't praise them for doing their "chores". I don't praise them for sharing. I don't praise them for the quality of their school work.
What they get when they are doing it right is the opportunity to keep doing it right. That's the reward.
Just two weeks ago one of my nearly two year olds was cleaning up the blocks off of our duplo table. It was his job during clean up. The newly turned four year old saw him struggling with taking apart the structures the kids had built. We have a very large duplo collection so the structures are big and have many levels.
She could see he was trying to pull apart the bricks but couldn't do it. She walked over and offered her hand. He gave her what he was trying to do. She undid the bricks and put them BACK on the table.. not put them away.. but back on the table. She knew that I would not want her to DO his job but she wanted to help him in the part he was stuck on.
I've never had to explain to her WHY I don't want kids doing the work of the other kids. She intrinsically knew what I would want without a single explanation. Now THAT was praise worthy. That was a "good job little sweetie... thanks"
I keep my prompts to them as simple as possible and do not explain.
NO
Stop
Clean Toys
come over here
Sit down
Stay there
Easy
Be Sweet
Share
Blocks at the Block table
No cars on the block table
No climbing
No dumping
Slow down
Be careful
Wait
etc.
I try to keep the discipline down to the smallest number of words with the least amount of attention to the child. Less is more. I say each word promt with nonverbal sterness to match.
I don't worry about teaching them the "why" of doing or not doing something. That will come to them soon enough. I want them to figure out the why. In the meantime just my saying what I want is ENOUGH for them to do what I want them to do.
Once they are the recipient of the good behavior of the other kids following the same pattern of discipline they GET why. Once they are playing blocks at the table and another kid trys to run a car across it they fully understand why I didn't allow THEM to have cars on the block table. Once they get butted into by a kid moving too fast they understand why I have taught them to go slow or be careful.
It all comes in time. It doesn't need a lot of explanation. They are all the recipients of the technique and the beneficiaries of the techniques.
Do what I tell you to do.
Right when I tell you to do it.
Do it without hesitation and without equivocation.
I'm the leader of this family. I am the one who knows the right way to make it work. All I need from them is the acknowldegement that I am the leader and they will do as I tell them. They don't need explanations for why. They don't need praise for doing what they are supposed to do in the first place. They need rules, boundaries, and limitations given to them in simplistic words that little children from toddler to preschool age can understand and comply with easily. Their understanding of it and reward from it will come from repeated exposures and their daily minute to minute positive life experience.
And with this technique and careful direct proximal supervision at all times I have the most well behaved kids a provider could ever hope for. They NEVER hit each other. They never throw toys. They are never mean to each other in ANY way. I haven't had a bite in my day care in nearly 16 years. I have kids in my care who have been here for 6 years and never once hit or ever been hit. There is NO violence towards each other or the equipment EVER. I don't throw away five dollars a year in toys. They don't back talk us. They are very very respectful to the adults.
We don't lift a finger cleaning toys. They do it ALL. They all have chores in the house from the time they are 18 months old and they do them EVERY day. They are responsible for the care of the children younger than they are. Their job is to PROTECT the safety of the younger children. Their job is to show the younger children exactly what we want. When one is exhibiting undesirable behavior the one child in the day care who consistently does it right becomes their buddy. They stay teemed up until I see what I want.
I rarely have to have conversations with parents about ill behavior. If I do there is a PROBLEM and it better get fixed. The parents know that when I tell them something that is a problem that it is a PROBLEM and they need to get on it at home. I handle everything possible "in house" but if I can't solve it then the parents must join in with me to fix it. The sheer fact that I rarely say anything to them is enough for them to take me very seriously.
So... yes it's another way to do it than Crystal's way. It looks like it's about the polar opposite. But both end up with great behaving kids so there ya go.Comment
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I use the "get down to their level" in the opposite situations. When a child does something really brilliant, really kind, really sweet, really insightful, really giving, really selflessly, really respectfully... that's when I get down on my knees and look at the eye to eye and tell them they rock my world
I reserve that for honoring the child.
It's very very effective.
When they are being corrected I stand above them. God made them smaller than us for a reason. They respond to being hoovered over just like many other animals in the animal kingdom. It's a sign of dominance and control. We are supposed to be their leaders. We are supposed to be in control.
It's a sign of weakness.. imho ... to discipline at their level. It's a sign of respect to bow down with them when they do extraordinary things. When they show me that they are evolving into universal thinking and universal actions.. then they get my respect and I "kneel" to them, say my appreciations for what they have done and promptly give them a "squeeze the stuffin out of ya" hug.
It's very very effective.Comment
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Thank you professionalmom! You understand that we've tried all of the "alternative techniques that are most common", and it has not worked with our group. If anything, it just makes it worse. Distracting from bad behavior only seems to get them what they want. Attention. If we ignore it, they up the amps and go further with the misbehavior until we HAVE to step in and stop it or someone is going to be seriously injured. Only that, again, gives them the attention they wanted. If we try redirection where we tell them what they're going to do now (or that they can now choose to do a or b), they respond with a very stubborn no. If we continue to tell them to, it only gives them what they want. again. And we all know better than to argue with a child anyway. We try telling them what to do, instead of what not to do, because I've heard kids hear the last part of a sentence (so if they're running, instead of "No Running", you're supposed to say, "walking feet, please". It all seems useless. If we talk to a parent about how their child is hitting, their response is that they got it from the other child. It's like an epidemic, that spreads like wild fire! Someone said we're going to be losing kids soon because parents will start pulling. We realize this, that's what we're afraid of. That is, if someone isn't seriously injured first. The two of us included (some of the kids think nothing of it to smack or pinch us!) But no matter what we do, they do it again the next time.Last edited by Michael; 05-31-2010, 12:39 PM.Comment
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For the record, I do use those same techniques Nanny....I certainly command respect from the children I work with, and from day one, the expectation is set that they will behave, be polite and respectful, use manners, etc. I personally have very few behavior issues with my children, and when I do, it is dealt with quickly.....
I also do not praise children over every little thing, but if I have a child who is quick to hit, and he chooses to "use his words" rather than lash out, you bet I am going to acknowledge that and let him know that I am proud of him for making the right choice. And, when a child goes above and beyond normal expectations, you bet I am going to let them know I am proud of them., give em' a hug and a high five and make sure all the other children hear/see it.
I also do not see it as a "sign of weakness" (thanks for the pot shot BTW) to get down to eye level when I need to discipline a child. It is mutual respect, and in my experience you get the same effect (good behavior) as you do when standing over a child intimidating them and making them feel worthless....except with kneeling to eye level and speaking directly to them they get the message more clearly and tend to be respectful becaue they choose to, not because they are scared to piss me off.
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When they are being corrected I stand above them. God made them smaller than us for a reason. They respond to being hoovered over just like many other animals in the animal kingdom. It's a sign of dominance and control. We are supposed to be their leaders. We are supposed to be in control.
And to this I must say WOW! Sure we are supposed to be "in control" but you make children sound as though they are not even as worthy as my dog. I think there are much better ways to have control, and being overly controlling and intimidating is not better IMO.Comment
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I reserve getting down to the child's level for two things - 1. praising the child for something unexpected or especially praiseworthy and 2. teaching something new. When I teach something new, I get on their level so that they know that we can learn together, so I can see their face well enough to know that they are paying attention, and to see their face enough to know if they are getting it. This goes for things like learning colors, shapes, etc and it also goes for discipline when it's something I honestly don't think the child knew before. For example, one dcb grew up around bad words and used them because that's what he heard at home. I got down on his level and told him that those words were unacceptable while he was with me. I explained that I knew that he didn't know and so he wasn't in trouble, but that now that he knew the rules, he would be expected to follow them. I also explained that there would be consequences for not following the rules.
I think that there needs to be a clear hierarchy of control. Children should know that they are not in charge. I guess you could call that intimidation but I think of it as a way of allowing the children to feel comfortable knowing that someone is taking care of them. Children who know that someone else is in control are more free to explore, learn, and make friends because they aren't worried about not knowing where the boundaries are. Just my opinion.Proverbs 12:1
A reminder to myself when I resist learning something new.Comment
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And, I agree. BUT, I do not think you have to stand OVER/hover OVER a child to get your point across. As I said before, I do not do that, and the children here CLEARLY know who is "in control" Personally, I believe if you ever have to raise your voice you are the one who is "out of control". My group know the boundaries, respect those boundaries, and we have AWESOME days together.
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I rarely sit, squat, or kneel when the dck are in my home unless I'm teaching them something. The kids don't feel like I'm hovering over them. It's more subconscious I think. Kind of like how powerful business people will assert their power by always sitting behind a massive desk and the chairs in front of the desk are smaller than the chair behind the desk so that even taller people will be shorter. Most people don't really notice the setup. They don't consciously feel inferior or small. It's just a way to establish right away who is in charge without constantly having to remind the kids who is in charge. I guess, for me, I think that a lot of discipline techniques are reactive instead of proactive. This is a way for me to establish some discipline before problems arise rather than just waiting for something to happen and then dealing with it. (Although there is that too). I don't know if I explained that well or not. I'm just saying that the kids don't feel bad or scared or intimidated. It's not something they really notice on a conscious level. I don't know if Nannyde handles it the same way.Proverbs 12:1
A reminder to myself when I resist learning something new.Comment
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I knew someone would go there and I knew it would be you.
How about this? I protect my children like a Mama bear. Now does that mean I treat human babies like bear cubs? YES and that's a good thing. Them Mama bear hoovers over her young when she is disciplining them too.
We DO have commonality between us and the animal kingdom.
There are MANY principles in the care of animals from one species to another that are alike. You took the "dog" shot because our society has a phrase we use to describe poor behavior or mean behavior as in "I wouldn't do that to a dog I didn't like"... "he treated me like a dog".
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