At My Wit's End! This Behavior Has Got to Stop!

[Unregistered]

Any ideas welcome! This place is out of control. No matter what we do, nothing helps! We're are very consistent with time-outs when needed, but what else can we do besides time-out? We take away special times (example: giving them a 5 minute time out indoors while the others go out to the playground. We can't make it any longer or one person would be left by themself outside with all the other children) and anything else we can think of, but it doesn't phase them at all. They continue it no matter how consistent we are with the consequence. They hit, kick, pinch, bite, yell, walk on the tables, knock the toy kitchen over to stand on, throw all the toys in the containers all over the room, throw plastic child sized chairs across the room, refuse to help clean up (we take the toys away, doesn't phase them. They still find something to do, such as throwing a chair instead of a toy). Out on the playground a couple of them actually climb the chain link fence and get out. We make them go inside, doesn't phase them. Give them a time-out for it, doesn't phase them. Please don't place on the blame on the providers. We have a lot of experience in caring for groups of children and have never, ever had this kind of out and out chaos. We've discussed it with the parents of the two kids who seem to cause most of it. This summer, these two are going to be taken care of by a relative instead of coming to daycare. But it is so out of control with the other children, also, that I'm not sure we can end this in one summer. Another of the biggest trouble makers is the owner's son. But only recently. Before, he'd get into stuff and and refuse to listen at times, but was never even NEAR this agressive. We need major help with effective discipline. If we started terminating kids for this, we wouldn't have any kids left! I'm serious, every last one of them have started hitting, at the least. By the way, with some of them, it's nearly impossible to do time-out because they WILL NOT sit in the chair for anything. The only way to get them to sit is to physically hold them down, with them hitting, and pinching, and kicking at us the whole time. We can't do a hold down, I'm not even sure if it's legal. Besides that, it just makes the situation escalate even worse! But they're too big for a pack and play, and would climb out as fast as they can jump up out of a chair (I've had someone suggest that before). Even the youngest (just turned 2) knows how to very quickly climb out of the pack and plays.

[momma2girls]

This would be a bad situation, they would be terminated immediately!!! They probably have been terminated from other daycare providers as well!!! If I have tried everything I can think of, they would be gone!!!

[professionalmom]

I had a VERY aggressive, out-of-control, destructive, and abusive child. I worked with him for a couple weeks but had to let him go. Sadly, his behavior was rubbing off onto the other children. It took a couple months to correct the behavior in the other children, but it did finally calm down. I no longer have the patience to "work with" these children. It's not because I don't want to, it's because I cannot have one child "corrupt" all the other, well-behaved children. I would drop the "trouble-makers", the ones who originally started this, immediately. Then work with the rest, if possible.

I firmly believe that children who are that much out of control (not just mimicking other children), have some other problem such as hearing or learning disability (as an example). Some may be abused at home or witnessing abuse. Either way, they need help beyond our expertise. We are child care providers. We are not doctors, child psychologists, physical therapists, ENTs, etc. Ok, we do often wear those hats, but most of us lack the credentials to make an accurate diagnosis. Plus, we have ALL the children to worry about.

What do the parents say when you bring this up? Do they laugh it off? Do they act like they know, but have given up trying to correct the behavior? Are they also concerned? What do they parents do at home to try to curtain this behavior?

[Crystal]

WHOA!!!!! This is utterly ridiculous. I cannot imagine working under those conditions day in and day out. Sounds like you need a whole new group....I would seriously consider starting fresh, or at least phasing out small groups at a time by advertising/interviewing and replacing children. If you cannot conduct tours/interviews during business hours due to the behaviors - which may scare off potential clients- I'd hold an open house on a weekend so that parents can see the program without the chaos.

On the other hand....

I have to say, when time out doesn't work, perhaps it is time to look at other methods of "discipline". Are you using redirection, limited choice, positive reinforcement, etc? Or are you always responding to children with scolding and mandatory time out?

.Also, It may not actually be a discipline issue.....I'd ask myself these questions-

How is the environment playing a role in the behaviors - is it under OR overly stimulating? I would sit and observe the children while they interact in the environment. Take notes so you know specifically how they are playing and using materials/toys, etc. Then I'd ask myself what I need to change to make it work for them, based on what I observed. Keep in mind that children may be spending 10-12 hours a day in this environment, which is not their home, and they need it to be comfortable and nurturing, in addition to educational and interesting

How am I responding to and interacting with children? Am I warm and supportive, or am I stressed out and snippy wth them? What am I doing to make our time together enjoyable?

Are there any outside resources? I'd look outside of the program for resources that may be helpful in resolving these issues.....check with your local R&R to see if they offer any assistance....our R&R will send someone to observe and set up a plan of action based on their observations - wether it be training for the provider or intervention/special needs services for the children, and they will provide resources to help meet the identified needs.

I want you to know that I am NOT saying that it's the provider at fault here....and, honestly, there have been times I have HAD to ask MYSELF the questions I have listed and realized that it was not JUST the children, but also how I behaved in response to them....and I have had to make changes to my own behavior, as well as my environment to make things better.

It is DEFINITELY the children, and they DEFINTELY need to change their behavior or move on - but I think the provider always has some role in the way the children behave....wether we like to admit it or not.

[Unregistered]

I had a VERY aggressive, out-of-control, destructive, and abusive child. I worked with him for a couple weeks but had to let him go. Sadly, his behavior was rubbing off onto the other children. It took a couple months to correct the behavior in the other children, but it did finally calm down. I no longer have the patience to "work with" these children. It's not because I don't want to, it's because I cannot have one child "corrupt" all the other, well-behaved children. I would drop the "trouble-makers", the ones who originally started this, immediately. Then work with the rest, if possible.

I firmly believe that children who are that much out of control (not just mimicking other children), have some other problem such as hearing or learning disability (as an example). Some may be abused at home or witnessing abuse. Either way, they need help beyond our expertise. We are child care providers. We are not doctors, child psychologists, physical therapists, ENTs, etc. Ok, we do often wear those hats, but most of us lack the credentials to make an accurate diagnosis. Plus, we have ALL the children to worry about.

What do the parents say when you bring this up? Do they laugh it off? Do they act like they know, but have given up trying to correct the behavior? Are they also concerned? What do they parents do at home to try to curtain this behavior?

I have certainly wondered (and looked up the signs on-line) if a couple of them might be autistic. The more I observe, the more I think so. But their parents would not be open to the idea, and would be highly offended if we mentioned anything. Another boy who is also causing a ton of problems (with bullying, throwing toys, refusing to listen, etc) was never a problem just a few months ago. He was the most helpful, obedient boy we had there. Then almost overnight, his behavior changed (like someone mentioned in another thread how their child made a 180 degree turn). We, nor the parents, can figure out what happend. But the behavior only seems to get worse. If we have time to think out a response when he gets into one of his moods, we can sometimes figure out a way to switch his thinking to something constructive. But what works one time doesn't work another and it wears us out trying to think ahead so fast, all day long. And that only works about 1/4 of the time. His parents have mentioned that it's worse when he gets tired. But good grief, he must always be tired! They have the same problem at home, and some of the other places he goes. I know he does better in a more structured environment, but with this chaos, we can hardly do anything structured! We're doing good to get them to simply wash their hands for meals and snacks.
We should have toys at ready access to them, but we've had to put the containers of little people, blocks, toy cars, etc up to prevent them from turning them into flying missiles, well aimed for another child. And one boy that I think may be autistic will take the containers and dump them all out, and throw them all over the room, and then the other toddlers join in and throw them around some more. And then the older ones take any toy close by and throw it at another child, just to have fun trying to hit them. So we put the toys up, not knowing what else to do (for safety reasons, and plain being sick of picking their toys up for them).
We've considered having someone in to observe the two we think may be autistic, but I'm almost afraid they'd see the chaos and get us shut down.
Also, we try to love on the children as much as possible and give positive reinforcement, but it's almost as if they take a "thank you for sharing" or "good job!" as their cue to misbehave worse.

[nannyde]

I firmly believe that children who are that much out of control (not just mimicking other children), have some other problem such as hearing or learning disability (as an example). Some may be abused at home or witnessing abuse.

Or we have a generation of children who get to act horribly with their parents and in "public" with nothing of consequence happening to them. The only consequence we are allowed to exact is time out. Time out is a very ineffective technique. It's especially ineffective when it's limited to a couple of minutes and done out in the open where the child can still see and hear what is going on in the room. It means nothing to most children.

One of the worst possible adult responses to children misbehaving is distraction. Distraction does nothing but buy you the moment. This is why the OP isn't having any consistency when she is able to change their minds now and then. Distraction is a REWARD for bad behavior.

Nan

[professionalmom]

Or we have a generation of children who get to act horribly with their parents and in "public" with nothing of consequence happening to them. The only consequence we are allowed to exact is time out. Time out is a very ineffective technique. It's especially ineffective when it's limited to a couple of minutes and done out in the open where the child can still see and hear what is going on in the room. It means nothing to most children.

One of the worst possible adult responses to children misbehaving is distraction. Distraction does nothing but buy you the moment. This is why the OP isn't having any consistency when she is able to change their minds now and then. Distraction is a REWARD for bad behavior.

Nan

I do agree with this assessment. When I was growing up, if I got into trouble with an adult (teacher, grandparent, aunt, uncle, etc.), I got in trouble with my parents. There was none of this, "(gasp) How dare you say such horrible things about MY precious little angel!?" Adults supported each other and understood that children misbehave and that misbehavior needed correction not defensiveness. It was part of the "growing up" process. Now, it is considered offensive to suggest to a parent that his/her child may have a real problem, which further escalates the issue because the treatment is delayed because of parental defensiveness and the resulting negligence.

Obviously, I do not spank or swat or use any discipline like that with my daycare kids, but I have noticed that many providers have mentioned that they do "swat" their own children from time to time. Now, I do not want a debate over physical punishment or not - it's irrelevant because it is illegal (at least in MI) in this industry. However, in a discipline course I took a few months back, they were saying that "time-out" was too harsh and bordering on abusive. What does that leave us? We keep getting told what NOT to do, which results in the situation such as the one the original poster described. Are we creating an environment where children (even very young children) are allowed to do whatever they want, regardless of how harmful or dangerous it is, simply because saying "no" becomes abusive or "too harsh"?

We are on a very slippery slope which seems like it will end with the inmates running the asylum. And how do you form a civilized society when you are caving into the weakest link (the youngest, most immature, most ignorant, etc.) of our society?

Why can't government stop telling us what NOT to do and just give us real useful tools and techniques THAT WORK! Of course, that just might put us back into the 1950's where a swat was considered the "responsible" course of action to correct behavior issues. (Again not saying whether it's right or wrong). I'm just pointing out that parents and caregivers did not seem to have a problem with this type of stuff as often until many or most of these discipline techniques were described as abusive.

[fctjc1979]

I agree with both nannyde and professional mom. People are afraid to discipline kids now. It's ridiculous how much we, as a society, expect kids to figure things out on their own since parents aren't being allowed to be a guide anymore.

It's even harder in child care. I really feel for op. If I were in this situation I would probably terminate the worst offenders and work with the ones that are left. Having problems like this can really ruin the reputation of a daycare and maybe even ruin your business. Nobody is going to want to bring their children somewhere where the kids are going to be learning how to misbehave and be generally unhandleable. You are going to start losing clients and be unable to replace them.

[DBug]

I only use distraction and time-outs, but I agree with you, Nan, it usually doesn't work. I'm always looking for new ideas -- what methods of discipline do you use?

[nannyde]

I do agree with this assessment. When I was growing up, if I got into trouble with an adult (teacher, grandparent, aunt, uncle, etc.), I got in trouble with my parents. There was none of this, "(gasp) How dare you say such horrible things about MY precious little angel!?" Adults supported each other and understood that children misbehave and that misbehavior needed correction not defensiveness. It was part of the "growing up" process. Now, it is considered offensive to suggest to a parent that his/her child may have a real problem, which further escalates the issue because the treatment is delayed because of parental defensiveness and the resulting negligence.

Obviously, I do not spank or swat or use any discipline like that with my daycare kids, but I have noticed that many providers have mentioned that they do "swat" their own children from time to time. Now, I do not want a debate over physical punishment or not - it's irrelevant because it is illegal (at least in MI) in this industry. However, in a discipline course I took a few months back, they were saying that "time-out" was too harsh and bordering on abusive. What does that leave us? We keep getting told what NOT to do, which results in the situation such as the one the original poster described. Are we creating an environment where children (even very young children) are allowed to do whatever they want, regardless of how harmful or dangerous it is, simply because saying "no" becomes abusive or "too harsh"?

We are on a very slippery slope which seems like it will end with the inmates running the asylum. And how do you form a civilized society when you are caving into the weakest link (the youngest, most immature, most ignorant, etc.) of our society?

Why can't government stop telling us what NOT to do and just give us real useful tools and techniques THAT WORK! Of course, that just might put us back into the 1950's where a swat was considered the "responsible" course of action to correct behavior issues. (Again not saying whether it's right or wrong). I'm just pointing out that parents and caregivers did not seem to have a problem with this type of stuff as often until many or most of these discipline techniques were described as abusive.

I like professionalmom posts

I wouldn't be upset if time out was banished. It doesn't work anyway. It's a measure of last resort at my house. If you limit it to the number of minutes of the age of a child it is completely ineffective. There's no point in doing something that has no real bearing on the child.

One of the problems with discipline is that we can't even try to share with each other what works. Providers aren't able to have real conversations about their techniques because anything short of giving the kid a bunch of lovin and cuddles and a plead to not repeat the action is considered abusive. It's one area of child rearing that we can't even use what did work from the generations before us because nothing short of petting the child is acceptable now. Anything that we do that isn't sunshine and roses is either specifically against state regs or is considered to harm the self esteem of the child.

The reason the kids in the OP's situation act like they do is because they can. I would have behaved that way as a child if the adults couldn't do anything about it. Most kids would. You will get a small number of kids who will natuarally be sweet and compliant but as time goes on that group is becoming smaller and smaller. If you don't have the children from the time they are babies you are going to be in the business of a lot of kids with a lot of behavior problems.

Another huge problem with todays acceptable discipline techniques is that they are simply too time consuming. If we are to "discuss" and "distract" and find ways around the child's behavior we have to have a lot of TIME for each child in each situation. My parents were able to do a quick NO or a quick swat on the butt or removing the child by making a child GO TO BED and stay in bed. Now there's nothing that the adults can do that is quick and stops the behavior. Now we must do a therapy session for every time the kid acts up. Most adults being paid to take care of kids aren't being paid enough and have a low enough number of children to devote that much of their resources to doing a therapy session to get behavior to change. We expect it now but nobody wants to pay for that. If the providers aren't being paid for that they won't do it.

It's getting worse. I have been doing this for three decades now and I can say without equivocation that the behavior of children has become markedly worse with each generation of kids. When you have kids who are ALLOWED to hit their mother, destroy property, harm themselves and others and their consequence is a two minute time out... you are going to have BIG problems. It doesn't work.. that's why it's getting worse. It's that simple.

I think one huge problem with discipline is the ability for adults to be honest with the parents. Not only can you not suggest there is anything wrong with the child but many parents don't even want to hear that their child is normal. We have a society now that believes that their child is "advanced", "really smart", and often "gifted". Normal is a slap in the face now. This is something that I did not see 10 years ago.

So when you have the parents believing their child is gifted and in reality the child has serious issues and is normal or even developmentally delayed you have NO common ground to unite and work on issues. It's BAD business to be honest. It doesn't "right" itself until the child goes to school.. free school.. the great equalizer. When no money is being exchanged the truth floats to the surface. Bit by bit the parent begins to see the truth of their child compared to others. The behavior becomes a liability to the public and generates societal changes like "zero tollerance" and "bullying policies". That's where we are now.

One other contributing issue IMHO is the diet of this generation. So many kids are living off of really bad nutrition from toddlerhood on. I think one of the main reasons I don't have behavior problems with my group is that they have excellent diets at home and at care. Their parents COOK for them and they eat healthy meals both at home and day care. Their bellies are full and their bodies are growing with the most excellent nutrition available. I could be wrong.. but I don't think so. I think nutrition is a HUGE factor in discipline and behavior.

[Momma in MT.]

I was a behavior specialist for our school district for 10 years before I needed a break and have now been doing daycare for almost 2 years.

The key is very easy.

1. Focus on the positive and ignore the negative as much as possible. If you have a kid being naughty find a kid that is being good and reward the kid being good. If a kid won't do what you want (sitting in timeout, cleaning up etc) offer painting or play doh to all the other kids. When the naughty kids tries to paint tell him no, he can participate as soon as he is done with what ever you asked him to do.

2. Reward baby steps. If the kid usually throws things during his temper tantrum and this time he only throws himself on the floor kicking and screaming, when he is done give him a high five because the did not throw anything. Make a big deal about it.

The hardest part is for you to remain calm, do not raise your voice and to ignore the negative behavior. Honest, this works every time. Sometime I have to get creative with my rewards. Find the one thing that the kid loves and use it.

[momma2girls]

I have them sit in the time out room or the time out rug for younger ones. Yes, it doesn't really work!!!
For older ones, I take away something like going outside, doing a fun activity, etc. this seems to work better than anything!!

[Michael]

I was a behavior specialist for our school district for 10 years before I needed a break and have now been doing daycare for almost 2 years.

The key is very easy.

1. Focus on the positive and ignore the negative as much as possible. If you have a kid being naughty find a kid that is being good and reward the kid being good. If a kid won't do what you want (sitting in timeout, cleaning up etc) offer painting or play doh to all the other kids. When the naughty kids tries to paint tell him no, he can participate as soon as he is done with what ever you asked him to do.

2. Reward baby steps. If the kid usually throws things during his temper tantrum and this time he only throws himself on the floor kicking and screaming, when he is done give him a high five because the did not throw anything. Make a big deal about it.

The hardest part is for you to remain calm, do not raise your voice and to ignore the negative behavior. Honest, this works every time. Sometime I have to get creative with my rewards. Find the one thing that the kid loves and use it.

Good advice.

[professionalmom]

Can I just say, the following quotes are excellent:

I wouldn't be upset if time out was banished. It doesn't work anyway.

That's one reason I don't even bother with it any more. There is absolutely no point.

If we are to "discuss" and "distract" and find ways around the child's behavior we have to have a lot of TIME for each child in each situation.

First, what on Earth is "distraction" or "redirection" supposed to do? It does not do anything to teach the child what (s)he did that was inappropriate or what the appropriate reaction or response would be. Let's call it what it is - Ignoring the behavior. Plus, how do you "right" the wrong when the "wrong" involved is that another child was hit? Ignore the behavior and redirect the wrong-doer? What does that teach the victim? That bad behavior gets a new, more interesting toy?
Second, how do you "discuss", "analyze", or "reason" with a 1 year old or 2 year old? Parents tend to think that their brilliant child has the capacity to reason and even feel empathy before 18 months. Truth - Not if they are normal! It is normal and healthy for these young children / toddlers to be selfish, egocentric beings. If they weren't, they would most likely have a serious medical or developmental problem. So, if it's normal to not have these skills until later, I repeat, how do you discuss, analyze, or reason with a very young child? Answer - you can't because they are not capable of it yet AND that's normal.

Now we must do a therapy session for every time the kid acts up.

This is really funny! Refer to the "discuss", "analyze", or "reason" portion above. To conduct therapy requires these 3 techniques, which are not age appropriate for toddlers. Also, why do we need to do therapy for a child acting "like a child". That likes saying "let's have a therapy session to figure out why your favorite color is red instead of blue". Why? That's not abnormal. It just IS. Basically any therapy session would reveal the following: Was the behavior inappropriate? Yes. Was there some reason for the inappropriate behavior? Yes. What was that reason? (S)He was being a normal, healthy CHILD.

[professionalmom]

nannyde, I think you and I are of one mind on this. You really put all of this is great perspective. Your post was excellent and very well thought out and written.