Personality/Temperament vs Conditioning ???

[jojosmommy]

I have a few tough dck. I am always thinking about what makes kids do the things they do. My SIL convinced it is personality/temperament but I think even the "tough" temperaments can be molded into well behaving children with the right type of discipline/parenting. Obviously one size doesn't fit all.

My son is a great kid, it didn't happen simply because he is "easy". We are always doing role modeling, setting expectations prior to doing things (ie going to a birthday or out to dinner) and we are very firm, consistent people. We also obviously spend a lot of time with our kids- which I believe solves lots of issues because they get their needs met regularly and therefore don't have to act out to be noticed.

My Sil's kids are the kind nobody wants to be around. No joke. As soon as they arrive to a family event the mood changes. Numerous times I hear people (family) talking about their behavior. My sil always blames it on temperament but has no clue how to discipline and makes no effort to try.

Recently my 6month old started crawling. She has had numerous med issues so I am delighted she is meeting milestones at or before typical considering what we have been through. My SIL says everyday "haha, your finally gonna get one like mine. Then you will know what it's like. I hope she gives you heck like my kids have. Then you'll see it from my point of view."

This got me thinking, how much really depends on personality and how much is conditioned response to family behavior? I know this is an impossible question to answer but what do you think? If you have a difficult personality child or physically busy always on the go kid, I would love your insights.

[familyschoolcare]

I think it is both.

In college I had to write a paper on this and take a side backing up if it is genitics or envirmental, I got a B would have gotten an A but could not and

would not state that it was %100 genitic or %100 environmental. I do think the gentics or personality/temperament in this case is slightly more of an factor than the envorment or discipline/parenting.

[countrymom]

I think genetics do play a part but I think parenting and enviroment play a bigger part in raising good kids.

[DBug]

I have 3 kids, 11, 10 and 4 -- the first was awesome easy, so great. The second was a bear. As soon as I weaned him, he turned . He is stubborn, opinionated and eccentric. People have a hard time understanding his personality. He's picky, and he's likely to say the first thing that pops into his mind at any given moment. But he's a pretty well-behaved kid. We were firm and consistent from the beginning, as tiring and as difficult as it was. This was the kid that, at 2 yrs old, would laugh in my face if I gave him a time-out. He's 10 now, and is respectful, has yet to get in trouble at school, is very empathetic and is gentle and kind with the daycare kids and his little sister.

However, if he had been raised in a permissive, indulgent environment, I shudder to think what he would be like now .

I believe personality is very much directed by the environment a child is raised in. Consistent, fair discipline is SO important, for any personality type.

I do agree with your SIL in one regard though. From what I've seen among my circle of friends -- the first kid is usually the easy one, the second WILL give you a run for your money . It's all in how you handle it that will determine the outcome!

[Lilbutterflie]

I have 3 kids, 11, 10 and 4 -- the first was awesome easy, so great. The second was a bear. As soon as I weaned him, he turned . He is stubborn, opinionated and eccentric. People have a hard time understanding his personality. He's picky, and he's likely to say the first thing that pops into his mind at any given moment. But he's a pretty well-behaved kid. We were firm and consistent from the beginning, as tiring and as difficult as it was. This was the kid that, at 2 yrs old, would laugh in my face if I gave him a time-out. He's 10 now, and is respectful, has yet to get in trouble at school, is very empathetic and is gentle and kind with the daycare kids and his little sister.

However, if he had been raised in a permissive, indulgent environment, I shudder to think what he would be like now .

I believe personality is very much directed by the environment a child is raised in. Consistent, fair discipline is SO important, for any personality type.

I do agree with your SIL in one regard though. From what I've seen among my circle of friends -- the first kid is usually the easy one, the second WILL give you a run for your money . It's all in how you handle it that will determine the outcome!

Agree 100%. Very well said. My first child is very polite, well behaved, gets wonderful grades in school, never gets in trouble. My 2nd child was a super easy baby; then when toddlerhood set in he became very challengng! He is stubborn, strong-willed, and has a very bad temper (like his dad). He likes to get a laugh at all costs, and most of the time he will do what he knows is wrong even though he knows the consequence. To him, it's worth it for the fun or laugh. However, when we are around other family members or in public, he is very very well behaved.

If he had parents who did not discipline and believed in "letting kids be kids"; I don't know how he'd end up!

[EntropyControlSpecialist]

I think genetics do play a part but I think parenting and enviroment play a bigger part in raising good kids.

Ditto this, says the mommy of an adopted son.

My adopted child's biological family acts completely different than he does. He was raised by us. The other children were not. It's very obvious.

[DCMom]

I think that genetics pays a bigger part than we think. The whole 'Nature vs Nurture' debate. This purely my opinion based on my experience.

I am adopted and I have met both of my birth parents. My birth mother and I look alike, walk alike and have many of the same mannerisms. Personality-wise, she unorganized, could not multi-task to save her life and is a total out of the box thinker! My birth-dad, organized, family oriented, loving man. Just like me. I think my morals, ethics and general life skills came from my adopted family.

Now for my children:

Oldest son looks, walks, thinks and acts exactly like my dh's father. Twins 60 years apart. Not kidding. They spent a lot of time together. He died when my ds was 18.

My middle son is the image of my birth father, both physically and personality. He did get his spending habits from his father...exactly opposite of me and his brother and sister!

My youngest dd looks like my dh and has the physical build of his side of the family, but has the personality and mannerisms of my birth mother. Totally, exactly alike.

Again morals, ethics, school expectations, etc. all came from us (and the families that raised us) but I do think that genetics play a big role. Maybe because I've had so many parents to compare, ! Also, we didn't spent alot of time with my birth parents. Our relationship is like friendly distant relatives; not like spending every birthday/holiday with them. That's why I find the similarities so striking, I guess.

[Breezy]

Dads side of my family are all very hmmm how should I put this..... low life type people? Drug addicts, very self centered, etc etc. All my cousins on that side are the same way. However, my dad pretty much stopped seeing them when my grandparents passed away because he can't stand them and my 4 siblings and I are NOTHING like them. So, genetically I am predisposed to alcoholism, and just overall being a crappy person and I like to think I am not that way at all

[SunshineMama]

It is both. You can be genetically predisposed to having a particular temperament, but the genes may or may not be expressed based on environmental factors. There have been numerous studies on identical twins raised in different environments that provides examples of how genes are affected based on environment.

[spud912]

I do agree with your SIL in one regard though. From what I've seen among my circle of friends -- the first kid is usually the easy one, the second WILL give you a run for your money . It's all in how you handle it that will determine the outcome!

In my experience this was NOT the case! My first was a very easy newborn (great nurser, didn't cry too much, slept well, etc.). As soon as her personality started to "blossom," we knew we were in trouble :: . She has more personality than any kid I've ever seen. She started laughing hysterically at 2 months old. She showed us that she does things on her own time at 4 months old (she would roll over only when she wanted to and not coached to do so....sounds normal but we know now it's part of her personality). By 7/8 months old, she started the temper tantrums when she did not get her way or she became frustrated (throwing herself on the floor screaming and kicking). By 10 months old, she started hitting (us, grandparents, objects) out of anger. We have done a lot of work with her and she does appear to act behaved now at age 3, but we know her personality and what she is capable of. She does not hit us anymore, but has a tendency to be pushy with her little sister and dck's. She also has mood swings that you would not believe (sometimes her tantrums last ALL day). On the other hand, she is extremely random, funny, laughs like crazy, does anything to get others to laugh, and is spontaneously sweet (she insists on kissing every dck before nap). I love her to death and I could not have asked for a more perfect daughter. We will go through life laughing, fighting, cuddling, talking and generally having a very strong relationship.

My younger daughter? She was a terrible newborn (did not sleep at night, horrible nurser, fussy all the time, finicky, etc.). She did not smile until around 4 months and we always wondered when her personality would come out. Starting around 8 months of age, we saw that she was and still is the sweetest little thing (minus having an insane attachment to me). She is gentle, never hits, rarely gets angry, plays nice with others, listens to directions (can you believe it ?).

I've come to realize that so many people are blessed with mild mannered children (like my #2). If everyone had a baby like my #1, I think we could really see the effects of parenting. I sometimes get frustrated when people brag that their children are wonderful and well mannered because solely of how they were raised. I agree, they were probably raised decently, but the child had a big part in how they turned out (they were already good children who were receptive to instructions!).

As my husband always says, there is a 50/50 rule. Half is what you put into it (environment), and the other half is what the child puts into it (genetics). You could be perfect parents and put 110% into raising your child right, but your child has a mind of his or her own and could still turn out bad based on their own demeanor. On the other hand, some really good kids come out of really bad family situations.

[cheerfuldom]

I shudder to think what my second daughter would be like in the hands of permissive parents.....it would be bad!

[jojosmommy]

Spud- I agree with the thought that kids who have an idea easier temperament likely "take" to your discipline style easier.

I'd like to know why a "difficult" kid (like my sil's 2 kids) can behave so terribly when they are with her and yet act like normal kids with manners, control, and are even pleasant to be around when they are under my watch and yet she can blame that on temperament? :confused: It's not like an outfit and they wear one temperament here and a totally different one at home. I don't buy into the whole temperament excuse when people make no effort to teach, model, and discipline. And I find it offensive that people assume those of us with a pleasant child don't do anything because we were "blessed with an easy kid".

I'm not saying you said that, I just wanted to include your earlier point in my post and not post 2x so understand that last piece wasn't directed at you specifically.

I actually hope my child is busy, on the go, strong willed etc just so I can prove to her that doesn't equal rotten, nasty, down right naughty. I would love to say just once "we'll if she is busy, on the go etc you'll get to see what a kid like that looks like with discipline "

[spud912]

Spud- I agree with the thought that kids who have an idea easier temperament likely "take" to your discipline style easier.

I'd like to know why a "difficult" kid (like my sil's 2 kids) can behave so terribly when they are with her and yet act like normal kids with manners, control, and are even pleasant to be around when they are under my watch and yet she can blame that on temperament? :confused: It's not like an outfit and they wear one temperament here and a totally different one at home. I don't buy into the whole temperament excuse when people make no effort to teach, model, and discipline. And I find it offensive that people assume those of us with a pleasant child don't do anything because we were "blessed with an easy kid".

I'm not saying you said that, I just wanted to include your earlier point in my post and not post 2x so understand that last piece wasn't directed at you specifically.

I actually hope my child is busy, on the go, strong willed etc just so I can prove to her that doesn't equal rotten, nasty, down right naughty. I would love to say just once "we'll if she is busy, on the go etc you'll get to see what a kid like that looks like with discipline "

No worries, I know you aren't singling me out . I do know where you are coming from, though. I always thought the same when my sister-in-law would talk about her son (it's amazing how similar he is to my daughter!). I always thought "Well, if he had proper discipline and a good schedule, I'm sure he would be much better." I'm not saying that she's number one mom in the world, but once I had my daughter, I realized that while her parenting is different than mine, I'm sure her son will turn out alright in the end.

I can also vouch that my daughter acts COMPLETELY different when in someone else's care. There have been occasional times where I literally could not take any more of my daughter (we are talking days upon days of endless temper tantrums), so I would send her off to her grandma's house (my mom, who watched her for the first 18 months of her life when I had to return to work). Miraculously, she was great there (well mannered, playful, etc.). Kids act completely different for other people than they do with their parents (who they feel most comfortable being themselves with).

I know it is frustrating for you with your situation, but I can tell you in all honesty, you do not want a difficult child to prove any point. I have no idea how your sister is as parent, so I can't say either way if she does a good job or not. Yes, difficult children can be taught to behave, but it takes a lot of time (years), patience, and other people to understand that there will be FREQUENT times where the children seems to "forget" their manners. Please don't take offense to my response, I'm just saying that I understand from both perspectives .

[Countrygal]

I'm gonna throw my 2cents worth in. I've raised three and am on raising the second generation. I've dealt with personality disorders and addictions. Here's my take on it.

It's both. I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that some of it is inherited. There is a very strong male tendency in personality in my ex's family. It has followed through four generations now and dgs is the fifth. As watered down as it SHOULD be by now, it's still very strong, even in him. Four of these guys were raised by four different moms and dads. All with different parenting styles. And yet they all grew up to be the exact same person, pretty much. Role modeling? I say not in this case because part of the personality is that they are very much loners and don't associate with family. My son hardly knew his grandfather. My uncle was more of a grandfather to him than his own grandfather. Except by the absence of a role model, there was little influence there. I had two girls. They are ENTIRELY different from my son. My son OBVIOUSLY inherited the genes, the personality disorders, whatever you want to call it from the male line. Just like only the males inherited the bedwetting.

I have to think that these inherited personality traits go through everyone, just some are stronger than others. And, like everyone says, some of them are influenced by how you are raised, and I believe some are not as much.

My conclusion has been that unless the person WANTS to overcome his "inherited traits", he won't. I guess I kind of extend the AA theory to every day life. He has to have the will to change, even as a child. I remember when I was young. I didn't have a lot of friends. I made up my mind that I was going to be friendly to everyone, no matter what. And I pretty much did. I kinda went overboard and, through the years, I put up with a lot that I should not put up with, but the point for this discussion is that I changed. I was only a pre-teen when I started this.

So, back to the OP - where does that leave me, as a parent with three different children with three different personalities. IMO, it's kind of like teaching - well, it IS teaching - you show them how to do it. Teach them morals, kindness, a sense of belonging, faithfulness, truthfulness, justice, purity, and a sense of self-worth with humility and a love for improving their knowledge and skills, and beyond that it is up to them as to what they do with it. That is why my program really stresses character traits and why I feel all of the tests and programs focus too much on the educational and not enough on the character. Don't get me wrong - I am an educator, but I use that to teach them, hopefully (at least that is the goal), how to be a wonderful, well-rounded person.

Obviously, however, I do not teach them how NOT to be long-winded!

[Blackcat31]

I'd like to know why a "difficult" kid (like my sil's 2 kids) can behave so terribly when they are with her and yet act like normal kids with manners, control, and are even pleasant to be around when they are under my watch and yet she can blame that on temperament? :confused: It's not like an outfit and they wear one temperament here and a totally different one at home. I don't buy into the whole temperament excuse when people make no effort to teach, model, and discipline.

I think it is the same concept as when we have DCK's who are horrible and nasty behaved for their parents and perfect angels for us.

It is all about expectations and how we expect someone to behave or act. We teach them how we expect them to act...that is the boat your SIL has clearly missed.

I have two complete opposite children of my own. My first is social, happy and eager to please as we well as being considered what most would call an "easy baby" where my second was ornery, defiant, sullen and very stubborn. He was also what we called a "difficult child".
However, they were both VERY well behaved children who had rules and manners like you mentioned about your children. We spent time teaching them how we expected them to believe. Yes, one was a bit more exasperating, but that didnt change our expectations. It just meant a bit more active disciline and hard work.

Sometimes the methods and systems we choose to use to achieve the desired behaviors were modified to meet each child's personality/temperament but the ultimate goals didnt change.

For example when we went to the store, if my DD behaved she would earn a $1 (to purchase a Little Golden Book) AFTER the shopping trip. Worked like a charm. But for my DS....he did not respond to "bribes" and rewards in the same way. With him we gave him the dollar (4 quarters) BEFORE we went on the shopping trip. He knew that if he misbehaved during the trip he would pay me one quarter. If he had anything left at the end he could buy a Matchbox car.

Ultimately it was the same goal and expectations (good behavior) but completely implemented in a different way to meet their individual learning styles, personalities and temperaments. Either way we taught them how we expected them to behave. As someone else mentioned, parenting has no one size fits all secret of success.

I also agree with DCMom about how our morals, ethics and general life skills come from our nurturers (parents and environment) while our personality and mannerisms come from nature.

Bottom line: Your SIL is just a lax, permissive, overall a not-so-great parent....... apologies if you two are close, she just doesn't seem to be one of those parents who takes the time to really know her kids so she can give them what they need.