Crystal And/Or Anyone Else Very Familiar With FCCERS And Family Style Meals

[snbauser]

I have a question about a new procedure we have implemented and how/if it will effect my FCCERS score when I am reassessed in June. And if it will, I would love suggestions on how to make it work.

We have recently (like just this week) started family style meals. The kids love it and are pretty good at it. So here is how are process works right now. The kids are usually outside while we are preparing lunch. When lunch is ready, we call in whomever is our lunch helper. They come in, take their shoes off, wash up, and place all of the napkins, plates, and forks at each seat. While they are doing that we begin calling in the rest of the kids 2 at a time. I have a total of 12 kids but only 2 sinks to wash hands in, hence why the 2 at a time. We try to keep them moving so that while 2 are washing, 2 more are coming in and taking their shoes off but it probably takes 10 minutes from start to finish, especially as it never fails that in the middle of the process one will decide they have to potty and "contaminate" one of the sinks. When everyone is seated we bring the bowls of food to the table for them to serve themselves and pass the bowl along. When everyone has their food we remove the bowls from the table (to prevent sneezes, etc from getting on the food when someone forgets to cover) and we bring their milk to the table (we haven't gotten to the point of them serving the milk yet and I am still nervous about it getting spilled when they are passing the bowls around).

Now 3 years ago at my last FCCERS assessment we got dinged for having all of the kids lined up to wash their hands at one time because the last ones in line were there "too long" without anything to do. So now we are good with that because they are pretty much playing until they are called to come in. But now with the family style meals, we really can't start having them serve the food until everyone is seated because otherwise they can't pass the bowl along if there isn't someone next to them yet. It would get too messy and chaotic to try and pass it back and forth across the table as the kids sit and I can almost guarantee that something would get spilled or someone would "contaminate" the food before everyone got served. So I am worried that we might get dinged for them sitting at the table for too long while they are waiting for the food. Should I be concerned? If so, what can I do to "fix" the process?

[Heidi]

My consultant was just here and I have a similar query. I don't mean to hijack, but maybe some suggestions will help us both?

I brought everyone in, and they kind of all "hung out" while I threw lunch in (I knew she was comming, so it was a re-heat today). I washed each toddlers hand, and sat them in their seats (boosters with seat belts at the family table-I don't have room for "child size").

I then told the older ones to come wash hands, and started putting the food on the table. Everything was ready from my end, but 3 1/2 yo decided to dilly-dally around. So, the younger kids sat waiting for more than the recommended 3 minutes because dcg would not go wash hands and sit down.

The consultant suggested that the raters might ding me for that. But I can't figure out what I could have done differently. If you have a "slow poke", or a child distracted by something (or being obstinant), it is a little out of our control. right? I am not going to start serving until everyone is seated-it's not even polite, in my opinion. We have worked very hard on that. We start eating when everyone has their food, or else one is done before kid #3 even has anything, and it's chaos. I also eat with the children, and I can't start eating until everyone is served (3 toddlers still need a lot of help).

I guess had the rater been here, I would have just taken that ding, because I can't figure out how else I could have handled that particular situation. Scream "G....GET YOUR LITTLE A** TO THE TABLE RIGHT NOW!"....:::::::confused:

[Meeko]

"Now 3 years ago at my last FCCERS assessment we got dinged for having all of the kids lined up to wash their hands at one time because the last ones in line were there "too long" without anything to do." (quote)

"OH NO!!!!!"

I have heard some stupid things...but that really would tick me off if I was in your shoes.

Can anyone tell me at what point some "higher power" decided that children shouldn't have to wait or learn patience???

And we wonder why we have so many self-centered kids around!

Just wait a few years! What are they going to do when they have a 2 hour wait at the DMV when they get older if they are being trained now to believe they have to be entertained constantly and aren't supposed to wait for even a few minutes?

In my day care, if a child has to wait a few minutes to wash their hands...so be it. They can have pleasant conversation with me and the other kids and learn a little lesson in waiting their turn while they do it.

You have waaay more patience than me. I would have told them to get the h*** out of my house.

[Crystal]

Technically, you shouldn't get dinged for it. The scale states:

"long period of waiting" means waiting without any activity for 3 minutes or more between daily events (e.g. running around aimlessly, WHOLE group sitting at tables waiting for lunch, waiting in line to go out or to use bathroom) Note that this indicator refers to waiting between transitions from one activity to another, rather than waiting within any activity.

Since the whole group is not waiting you should be okay, BUT I imagine this is one of those "grey" areas for assessors.

A simple fix would be to sing, read or do fingerplays with those that are sitting at the table while waiting for the rest to join them for mealtime.

[Heidi]

Technically, you shouldn't get dinged for it. The scale states:

"long period of waiting" means waiting without any activity for 3 minutes or more between daily events (e.g. running around aimlessly, WHOLE group sitting at tables waiting for lunch, waiting in line to go out or to use bathroom) Note that this indicator refers to waiting between transitions from one activity to another, rather than waiting within any activity.

Since the whole group is not waiting you should be okay, BUT I imagine this is one of those "grey" areas for assessors.

A simple fix would be to sing, read or do fingerplays with those that are sitting at the table while waiting for the rest to join them for mealtime.

well, I was a bit occupied trying to get her to join us...and keeping older brother from yelling at her while HE got up again..to yell at her....again...while she kept ignoring all of us...again....dang...3 minutes just went by like a flash!

Why isn't there a screaming-ripping-hair out emoticon?

[Heidi]

well, I was a bit occupied trying to get her to join us...and keeping older brother from yelling at her while HE got up again..to yell at her....again...while she kept ignoring all of us...again....dang...3 minutes just went by like a flash!

Why isn't there a screaming-ripping-hair out emoticon?

hey...and doesn't our comedy routine ala The Three Stoogies qualify as entertainment?

[Crystal]

well, I was a bit occupied trying to get her to join us...and keeping older brother from yelling at her while HE got up again..to yell at her....again...while she kept ignoring all of us...again....dang...3 minutes just went by like a flash!

Why isn't there a screaming-ripping-hair out emoticon?

....sorry, I should have clarified that I was responding to the OP.

In your case I would have marched in to the potty, told the girl she has a choice,she can wash her hands and get herself to the table or I will help her wash her hands and take her to the table. I'd give her a couple of seconds to comply and then I would simply wash her hands and carry her to the table.

[Crystal]

"Now 3 years ago at my last FCCERS assessment we got dinged for having all of the kids lined up to wash their hands at one time because the last ones in line were there "too long" without anything to do." (quote)

"OH NO!!!!!"

I have heard some stupid things...but that really would tick me off if I was in your shoes.

Can anyone tell me at what point some "higher power" decided that children shouldn't have to wait or learn patience???

And we wonder why we have so many self-centered kids around!

Just wait a few years! What are they going to do when they have a 2 hour wait at the DMV when they get older if they are being trained now to believe they have to be entertained constantly and aren't supposed to wait for even a few minutes?

In my day care, if a child has to wait a few minutes to wash their hands...so be it. They can have pleasant conversation with me and the other kids and learn a little lesson in waiting their turn while they do it.

You have waaay more patience than me. I would have told them to get the h*** out of my house.

Yeah, I agree. Typically I don't mark down for the "three minute wait" Technically I am supposed to, but I just don't time stuff, so I cannot mark down for it. Now, if it was a LONG wait, I would.

Children need to learn about "delayed gratification" Waiting is part of life....waiting in line at the store or bank, waiting for a paycheck to buy a new pair of shoes, etc. It is not realistic to think that children should never have to wait for three minutes to get what they want/need.

I also do not think it is realistic to expect a provider in FCC, especially one without an assistant, to constantly keep ALL of the children busily involved in some sort of activity.

[Heidi]

....sorry, I should have clarified that I was responding to the OP.

In your case I would have marched in to the potty, told the girl she has a choice,she can wash her hands and get herself to the table or I will help her wash her hands and take her to the table. I'd give her a couple of seconds to comply and then I would simply wash her hands and carry her to the table.

I was kind of messin' with ya...I knew you were talking to OP.

I avoided the usual route of "you make the choice or I'll make it for you" because missy would then start screaming (let me go, let me go) and hitting me...sigh. It worked out fine, and she did eventually comply, everyone just had to wait 4 or 5 minutes instead of <3. oh well...

[Meeko]

Technically, you shouldn't get dinged for it. The scale states:

"long period of waiting" means waiting without any activity for 3 minutes or more between daily events (e.g. running around aimlessly, WHOLE group sitting at tables waiting for lunch, waiting in line to go out or to use bathroom) Note that this indicator refers to waiting between transitions from one activity to another, rather than waiting within any activity.

Since the whole group is not waiting you should be okay, BUT I imagine this is one of those "grey" areas for assessors.

A simple fix would be to sing, read or do fingerplays with those that are sitting at the table while waiting for the rest to join them for mealtime.

Crystal, have you voiced your opinion to the "higher-ups"?? Sounds like other assessors are not on the same page as you and are trying to nick-pick providers to death. There should never BE any "grey" areas. A provider should either be in compliance or not.

We have a wonderful regulation manual here from licensing. It describes each rule...the reason for it and is VERY clear. No way for an inspector to interpret at will. It has made life waaaay easier for Utah providers AND inspectors. I love my inspector and we have had many great conversations. She LOVES the manual....no more trying to decide IF she's right.

It doesn't matter what the inspector "thinks" or what her "opinion" is. If it's not covered in the manual....it doesn't exist.

For instance, one year, when my husband was working with me, he became very ill for a few months and let his First Aid and CPR lapse. At re-licensing time, my inspector tried to tell me we were out of compliance. The reg said at least one provider shall have current First Aid/CPR. So I knew I was OK as mine was current. My husband intended to get his renewed when he felt better. I argued with her and she had the audacity to tell my "Well the rule "implies" that you both need it." I asked her on what planet can you write someone up for an "implied" rule!!!! I read it to mean that I must be present at the day care and not leave to run an errand etc as I am the only one with current training. Her supervisor backed me up and from then on our relationship was "strained" . She was eventually tranferred because other providers got tired of arguing with her too and having to go over her head. Now the manual EXPLAINS the rule. No room for interpretation.

Sounds like you could use something like that for this situation.

[Heidi]

Yeah, I agree. Typically I don't mark down for the "three minute wait" Technically I am supposed to, but I just don't time stuff, so I cannot mark down for it. Now, if it was a LONG wait, I would.

Children need to learn about "delayed gratification" Waiting is part of life....waiting in line at the store or bank, waiting for a paycheck to buy a new pair of shoes, etc. It is not realistic to think that children should never have to wait for three minutes to get what they want/need.

I also do not think it is realistic to expect a provider in FCC, especially one without an assistant, to constantly keep ALL of the children busily involved in some sort of activity.

No offense at ALL to your idea about the songs, but here we are, trying to "keep them happy" during transitions with songs or fingerplays. THen, when they get to school, they would get a stern "BE QUIET" if they acted like that in the hallways! I agree with Mel (again)...sometimes ya just gotta wait, kiddo!

[Crystal]

Meeko....here, for the assessors who conduct assessments for the R&R, we do have a manual that we follow. We also have monthly trainings related to the scales and are expected to be very professional about it. We are also required to "when it doubt, score in the providers favor"

The problem lies in the scales. The descriptions are very specific and some of the indicators are really outdated. The ECERS and ITERS at least have companion books "All about ECERS" and "All about ITERS" that clearly define what is and is not acceptable. Unfortunately, they have yet to develop one for the FCCRS, so most assessors go by the notes in the scale, which can be vague.

Also, because these scales are used nation wide, with various training methods in how to actually assess, there is no way to actually demand that all assessors follow the exact same guidelines.

At least here, we are required to take a semester long college class and must pass with an A to conduct assessments for the R&R. I was hired by Head Start only after having this class AND having conducted over 50 assessments for the R&R that were considered valid and reliable.

[Crystal]

No offense at ALL to your idea about the songs, but here we are, trying to "keep them happy" during transitions with songs or fingerplays. THen, when they get to school, they would get a stern "BE QUIET" if they acted like that in the hallways! I agree with Mel (again)...sometimes ya just gotta wait, kiddo!

I agree. I don't entertain the kids with songs or fingerplays between transitions either. But, when being observed, it's an easy way to not get dinged.

[snbauser]

"long period of waiting" means waiting without any activity for 3 minutes or more between daily events (e.g. running around aimlessly, WHOLE group sitting at tables waiting for lunch, waiting in line to go out or to use bathroom) Note that this indicator refers to waiting between transitions from one activity to another, rather than waiting within any activity.

A simple fix would be to sing, read or do fingerplays with those that are sitting at the table while waiting for the rest to join them for mealtime.

Thanks Crystal. I think the line in bold above is what they dinged me for - the time that they were standing in line waiting their turn. My only problem with the entertaining them at the table is our set up doesn't really allow proper supervision if one is at the tables with the kids. I usually have 1 staff outside with the kids that are still outside, 1 staff at the cubbies helping those that need help with jackets/shoes/etc and 1 supervising the handwashing. The bathroom is around the corner so it can't be the same person at both the cubbies and the sinks. The person at the cubbies can see the tables to cover visual supervision but they are about 20 feet away from the tables so reading to them or singing with them would be difficult.

I might have to try and play with the timing some and see what I can tweak. If I bring in 4 at a time instead of 2 at a time, then although the second set would be standing in line waiting to wash, it wouldn't be for the 3 minutes. I will have to time it one day next week when everyone is back from spring break to see how long it is between the time the first child sits at the table and the time we actually start serving. I might also be able to figure out a way to bring in one table of kids at a time and start serving that table while the remaining 2 teachers bring the other table of kids in and get them washed and sat.

[snbauser]

The problem lies in the scales. The descriptions are very specific and some of the indicators are really outdated. The ECERS and ITERS at least have companion books "All about ECERS" and "All about ITERS" that clearly define what is and is not acceptable. Unfortunately, they have yet to develop one for the FCCRS, so most assessors go by the notes in the scale, which can be vague.

I could not agree more with this statement. I have had FCCERS assessments both here and in CA and they were both different. I got dinged one time for not having enough adult seating. Um hello? There were 2 teachers and 3 adults seats. I also don't agree with the way some of it is written. For example there is a section that requires you to have had and passed a fire inspection. In my county family child care providers are not required to have a fire inspection and if you call the fire department and ask for one they will tell you that they won't do them unless you are a center. But if you go through the scales some assessors won't give you an N/A on that one because the book doesn't say it allows you to take an N/A so you get dinged.