Destructive 3 yr old and Ignorant DCM

[Sugar Magnolia]

Billing the parent: this will definitely encourage the parents to teach their child NOT to destroy costly items. Pitter, correct me if I am wrong, but your post indicated not only is the childs destruction a problem, but the mom not caring or doing anything about it was a big problem too. If mom got a bill, she will likely reinforce the "no breaking things on purpose" rule at home too. If the child learns at home that destruction is unacceptable, her will learn that it is unacceptable everywhere. Billing the parent is a consequence for the parent, not the child. If a child smashes something in a store, the store is going to make mom pay. Period. Your home, Pitter, is no different than the store. Kid breaks it, mom buys it. Mom WILL start to care and WILL WORK with her child to stop the behavior that its costing her so much money.

Disciplining the child at daycare: No, little Jimmy does not care if mom gets a bill. True. But Little Jimmy does care about having fun. Yes, the child should have consequences, like "sorry no art project today, you broke that toy on propose." I can see separating the child from the group for a short time to observe the other kids playing nice. Is rewarding good behavior such a controversy? I think not. Little Jimmy needs to be praised when he is playing nice.

GreenPlastic: I agree with you, even if Mac says "during free play time only", it translates to all day. If.they are not eating, going potty, napping or other routine care functions, they are playing. She doesn't think this child should be allowed to play, for a week, and that is easy too harsh.

Mac: do you think on the third or forth day of your "thinking spot" treatment, this child will even remember what it is they are being punished for? No, all they will know is that they are not allowed to play and that they are miserable. Would you honestly tell the parent of this child that they will be segregated from all children for a week? "your child will be fed and pottied and be supervised, but sorry, he will not be allowed to play with other children and have very limited access to toys and be told to sit on a blanket during free play times. All this because he broke a toy." You think this will fly? Honestly, you would really segregate and restrict play items for a week for a 3d year old child? If youhonestly feel this is appropriate, you need to a class on age appropriate basic guidance and discipline. Separating a child from a group for several minutes after an incident occurs is appropriate. A week is highly inappropriate. Call licensing and ask them if you dont believe me.

[PitterPatter]

Billing the parent: this will definitely encourage the parents to teach their child NOT to destroy costly items. Pitter, correct me if I am wrong, but your post indicated not only is the childs destruction a problem, but the mom not caring or doing anything about it was a big problem too. If mom got a bill, she will likely reinforce the "no breaking things on purpose" rule at home too. If the child learns at home that destruction is unacceptable, her will learn that it is unacceptable everywhere. Billing the parent is a consequence for the parent, not the child. If a child smashes something in a store, the store is going to make mom pay. Period. Your home, Pitter, is no different than the store. Kid breaks it, mom buys it. Mom WILL start to care and WILL WORK with her child to stop the behavior that its costing her so much money.

Disciplining the child at daycare: No, little Jimmy does not care if mom gets a bill. True. But Little Jimmy does care about having fun. Yes, the child should have consequences, like "sorry no art project today, you broke that toy on propose." I can see separating the child from the group for a short time to observe the other kids playing nice. Is rewarding good behavior such a controversy? I think not. Little Jimmy needs to be praised when he is playing nice.

GreenPlastic: I agree with you, even if Mac says "during free play time only", it translates to all day. If.they are not eating, going potty, napping or other routine care functions, they are playing. She doesn't think this child should be allowed to play, for a week, and that is easy too harsh.

Yes the part that has me even more frustrated is DCM always blowing it off. No matter the issue really. It's always the same no matter the problem "BOOOOBBBYYYYY" (calm low toned and dragged out like you know better) that's it. I spoke with DCM again at pick up and told her we should make time to discuss the breaking of toys and what we can do as a team to make sure he understand that he has to play nice. She just said " I already know he's destructive he's only 3. There's nothing that can be done he's just a little boy" THAT ignorance is what makes me want to fine her arse for it all!

I have 2 battles on my hands. The battle with DCB and the battle with DCM because she won't help me enforce the rules with DCB. He wont stop at my home is he it is just giggled at and blown off at home. I almost hope the little sweetheart breaks something important to her!

[LittleD]

Yes the part that has me even more frustrated is DCM always blowing it off. No matter the issue really. It's always the same no matter the problem "BOOOOBBBYYYYY" (calm low toned and dragged out like you know better) that's it. I spoke with DCM again at pick up and told her we should make time to discuss the breaking of toys and what we can do as a team to make sure he understand that he has to play nice. She just said " I already know he's destructive he's only 3. There's nothing that can be done he's just a little boy" THAT ignorance is what makes me want to fine her arse for it all!

I have 2 battles on my hands. The battle with DCB and the battle with DCM because she won't help me enforce the rules with DCB. He wont stop at my home is he it is just giggled at and blown off at home. I almost hope the little sweetheart breaks something important to her!

Did you inform her she will now be charged for items he breaks? And also, as soon as he threw the first thing, (shovel I think it was) instant time out. When it comes to throwing things or violence, there is no second chance. Any situation where another child can be injured is instant punishment. (Even if there was no other child near the item being thrown this time, next time we may not be so lucky)

[My3cents]

I don't consider feeding, potty etc. to be time for play, so I would still consider it as "doing time" on the blanket. Even prisoners get to eat and go potty.


Ya know, instead of getting defensive every time someone comments on your posts, why don't you consider the way you say things and be more thoughtful when you respond to people? I myself have struggled with it and have attempted to change the way I say things so that people hear what I mean instead of what THEY read it to mean because I said it "wrong"

If you post more clearly EXACTLY what you mean, it wouldn't be misconstrued. Although, I do believe that most of your first responses ARE what you mean and then you feel the need to back track and defend yourself, even when you are wrong.

sometimes I agree with you Crystal and sometimes I don't. but......you do come across as jumping on people a lot. Sorry- maybe you could play a little nicer too but.... I see that you are tryinghappyface sorry I guess I just felt for Mac60 who I understood what she was trying to do with the blanket. Common sense told me she is a caring provider suggesting a solution to what works for her and not abusing it to the extreme. She is trying to teach the child that if you break my toys, these are the toys that you are going to be allowed to play with. Not a life threatening consequence.

[My3cents]

"If you do not want us to take your posts the wrong way, then be more clear."

Crystal- How would you handle this situation? Exactly what would you do and how, be detailed- I get that you would handle it as a group, how so.....you were not clear to me in how you would handle it as a group.

I am always looking for ways to better myself- so please don't let this come across as a wave maker- I stand firm on what I said in previous post as I do not feel that Mac60 was outrageous in what she suggested. Sometimes it takes several different methods before we find one that works, and each child is different, what works for one often doesn't work for all.

[nannyde]

Children learn absolutely NOTHING from being secluded/excluded/confined. They learn from being a part of the group, and from a consistent and knowledgeable adult guiding them to proper behavior.

I disagree completely but assuming you are correct:

1) It's okay that they don't learn anything from it.

2) Knowing Pitter's funding for the kids she cares for there simply isn't enough money to provide a consistent and knowledgeable adult to guide one child into proper behavior. She makes a couple of dollars an hour. That kind of guidance requires an adult specifically FOR the child to protect the property and the other kids. An adult for this child would be much more than the parents could afford or Pitter could afford.

Seclusion and confinement work very well and is an affordable alternative to having an adult one to one a kid whether that child be a biter, hitter, toy basher, or whatever other untoward behavior the child is displaying.

What's lacking now is the ability to put a child who repeatedly offends NOT in a confined area but TO BED. This kid needs to GO TO BED and stay in bed for a good while. When he gets a good lot of that THEN he needs to go into a confined area to play and slooooowly bit by bit be reintroduced into the free play he so bodly abused.

It's unfortunate that "go to bed" has been removed as an alternative discipline for child care providers. It worked FABULOUSLY in previous generations (second only to a spanking) but Lord forbid we do anything but "guide" the child at two bucks an hour.

These kids aren't getting better behaved as time goes on. As we strip away every meaningful discipline from providers you are going to see reactions like Mac60's. What she is REALLY saying is that she's given NOTHING that really works that isn't so costly and time consuming that the fees for the child do not come CLOSE to managing it.

Mac60: I understood what you were saying and I don't believe you meant for a week on a blanket all day long. I think what you were saying is that the consequence can't be metered out over three minutes and have it work... that the kid needs to be excluded from what he is abusing... and it needs to be over a few days so each time he is excuded from that activitiy he sees that the gig he had before was a heckofalot better than the gig on the blanket.

[Crystal]

I would start with having him as my shadow for the day.....everywhere I am, he is. (FYI, I am typically in the play area with the children facilitating their play, I would just be certain that this one was within arm's reach at all times) The second he attempts to throw a toy, I'm there to stop it.

I would also have him help repair whatever he has broken....even if it is going to end up in the trash anyway. I'd make him use critical thinking skills....guiding him with open-ended questions....to figure out what he could use/do to fix it. Then I'd put him to work on it. When he discovers that it cannot be fixed....even after all of his hard work and use of SOME of his play time..... he might decide he doesn't want to do that again.

[MrsB]

I would start with having him as my shadow for the day.....everywhere I am, he is. (FYI, I am typically in the play area with the children facilitating their play, I would just be certain that this one was within arm's reach at all times) The second he attempts to throw a toy, I'm there to stop it.

I would also have him help repair whatever he has broken....even if it is going to end up in the trash anyway. I'd make him use critical thinking skills....guiding him with open-ended questions....to figure out what he could use/do to fix it. Then I'd put him to work on it. When he discovers that it cannot be fixed....even after all of his hard work and use of SOME of his play time..... he might decide he doesn't want to do that again.

I get what you are trying to say, but I have a few thoughts as to why this wouldnt work in my group.

1. So what do you do when you have more than one doing this? I can't keep 7 shadows all within arms reach of me all day.

2. They are not learning how to play appropriately themselves. They learn to rely on having someone regulate their play instead of learning how to do it themselves.

3. I have a few kids that are super needy for attention. The only thing they get from the shadowing is that if they act up they get my attention.


Exclusion, is the only real way I have learned that works for destructive behavior. Plus it is a real life lesson. If you destroy work property you get fired. If you destroy school property you get expelled.

Here you have to be invited to play with us and to be invited you have to play nicely and be respectful. Otherwise you can't join us. So far it has worked for me.happyface

[nannyde]

I would start with having him as my shadow for the day.....everywhere I am, he is. (FYI, I am typically in the play area with the children facilitating their play, I would just be certain that this one was within arm's reach at all times) The second he attempts to throw a toy, I'm there to stop it.

I would also have him help repair whatever he has broken....even if it is going to end up in the trash anyway. I'd make him use critical thinking skills....guiding him with open-ended questions....to figure out what he could use/do to fix it. Then I'd put him to work on it. When he discovers that it cannot be fixed....even after all of his hard work and use of SOME of his play time..... he might decide he doesn't want to do that again.

My kids would LOVE having this adult response. It wouldn't stop them from destroying things but it would be super fun.

Having an adult spotting the child wouldn't be a reward but it wouldn't be a consequence either.

Having an adult help repair whatever they have broken would be something different than what they do day to day so that would be fun and exciting. "Working" on it would be really fun.

Knowing that something couldn't be fixed would not be a problem for most kids. They live for the moment so loosing one toy out of the hundreds they have access to daily would litterally mean nothing. We remove toys that don't work for the group and not a single kid has an issue with it. It's either available or it's not. If it's not... there is something else to go to.

This sounds good in theory and it sounds super dooper for the kid. I don't see how it would lead to less destruction though.

[Crystal]

I get what you are trying to say, but I have a few thoughts as to why this wouldnt work in my group.

1. So what do you do when you have more than one doing this? I can't keep 7 shadows all within arms reach of me all day. Honestly, I don't EVER have more than one doing this, and generally I don't have one doing it. I raise the children from infancy and they know what is expected of them, and typically are very well-behaved.

2. They are not learning how to play appropriately themselves. They learn to rely on having someone regulate their play instead of learning how to do it themselves.Yes, actually they are. They are still part of the group and participate in everything the group is doing. They just don't have the opportunity to throw things because I am near their side to stop it. Children certainly do not learn how to regulate their play/behavior if they are limited to sitting on a blanket by themselves for hours at a time, days on end, without peer interaction.

3. I have a few kids that are super needy for attention. The only thing they get from the shadowing is that if they act up they get my attention. You betcha....they get my attention. ATTENTION is what a child who does not know how to behave needs. They don't want this kind of attention though, I don't make it fun and exciting. They'd rather I was off doing something else while they play.


Exclusion, is the only real way I have learned that works for destructive behavior. Plus it is a real life lesson. If you destroy work property you get fired. If you destroy school property you get expelled. Sure....but those children are MUCH older....not preschoolers that are still learning right from wrong and cause and effect.

Here you have to be invited to play with us and to be invited you have to play nicely and be respectful. Otherwise you can't join us. So far it has worked for me.happyface Here you have to play nicely and respectfully too. However, I would never exclude a young child simply because they broke a toy, or what-have-you. And, for 15 years, it has worked for me

I answered in bold.

[Crystal]

I disagree completely but assuming you are correct:

1) It's okay that they don't learn anything from it.

2) Knowing Pitter's funding for the kids she cares for there simply isn't enough money to provide a consistent and knowledgeable adult to guide one child into proper behavior. She makes a couple of dollars an hour. That kind of guidance requires an adult specifically FOR the child to protect the property and the other kids. An adult for this child would be much more than the parents could afford or Pitter could afford.

Seclusion and confinement work very well and is an affordable alternative to having an adult one to one a kid whether that child be a biter, hitter, toy basher, or whatever other untoward behavior the child is displaying.

What's lacking now is the ability to put a child who repeatedly offends NOT in a confined area but TO BED. This kid needs to GO TO BED and stay in bed for a good while. When he gets a good lot of that THEN he needs to go into a confined area to play and slooooowly bit by bit be reintroduced into the free play he so bodly abused.

It's unfortunate that "go to bed" has been removed as an alternative discipline for child care providers. It worked FABULOUSLY in previous generations (second only to a spanking) but Lord forbid we do anything but "guide" the child at two bucks an hour.

These kids aren't getting better behaved as time goes on. As we strip away every meaningful discipline from providers you are going to see reactions like Mac60's. What she is REALLY saying is that she's given NOTHING that really works that isn't so costly and time consuming that the fees for the child do not come CLOSE to managing it.

Mac60: I understood what you were saying and I don't believe you meant for a week on a blanket all day long. I think what you were saying is that the consequence can't be metered out over three minutes and have it work... that the kid needs to be excluded from what he is abusing... and it needs to be over a few days so each time he is excuded from that activitiy he sees that the gig he had before was a heckofalot better than the gig on the blanket.

Well, I don't know how much money pitter makes and to me that is irrelevant. Unlike you, I don't attach $ signs to every action I take with children. I do as much work as possible in my day....regardless of how much I am paid.....and let's face it, to be making two bucks an hour, you'd probably only be caring for one child. The reality of it is we make MUCH more than that when you total ALL of the children we care for. But, again, that is irrelevant to me. I do what I have to do, regardless of my hourly wage.

[Crystal]

My kids would LOVE having this adult response. It wouldn't stop them from destroying things but it would be super fun. Nah, my kids don't love it when they are my shadow. They'd much rather be playing without me hovering. They get LOTS of independent play here, so having me next to them all day bugs the heck out of them.

Having an adult spotting the child wouldn't be a reward but it wouldn't be a consequence either. see above

Having an adult help repair whatever they have broken would be something different than what they do day to day so that would be fun and exciting. "Working" on it would be really fun. I suppose it could be considered fun....but the point of it is to see that they CANNOT fix what they broke.....they KNOW I am disappointed..... THAT makes them SAD....they don't like feeling that way

Knowing that something couldn't be fixed would not be a problem for most kids. They live for the moment so loosing one toy out of the hundreds they have access to daily would litterally mean nothing. We remove toys that don't work for the group and not a single kid has an issue with it. It's either available or it's not. If it's not... there is something else to go to. Yeah....I remove things that aren't working for my group too. I am a HUGE believer that the environment plays a significant role in children's behavior. If my kids are having issues, the FIRST thing I look at is the environment to consider if changes need to be made. And, just like for you, not a single kid has an issue with it.

This sounds good in theory and it sounds super dooper for the kid. I don't see how it would lead to less destruction though.Maybe it doesn't. Maybe it does. I cannot GUARANTEE that it works. As I said in a previous post, my kids are with me from infancy (typically) and they know my expectations. I don't typically have these types of issues. But, when I do, I know how to handle it in a way that works for MY kids. happyface

I have worked this way successfully with children for 15 years and do not have behavior issues like many providers here express. SOOOO.....I MUST be doing something right

[Crystal]

I disagree completely but assuming you are correct:

1) It's okay that they don't learn anything from it.

2) Knowing Pitter's funding for the kids she cares for there simply isn't enough money to provide a consistent and knowledgeable adult to guide one child into proper behavior. She makes a couple of dollars an hour. That kind of guidance requires an adult specifically FOR the child to protect the property and the other kids. An adult for this child would be much more than the parents could afford or Pitter could afford.

Seclusion and confinement work very well and is an affordable alternative to having an adult one to one a kid whether that child be a biter, hitter, toy basher, or whatever other untoward behavior the child is displaying.

What's lacking now is the ability to put a child who repeatedly offends NOT in a confined area but TO BED. This kid needs to GO TO BED and stay in bed for a good while. When he gets a good lot of that THEN he needs to go into a confined area to play and slooooowly bit by bit be reintroduced into the free play he so bodly abused.

It's unfortunate that "go to bed" has been removed as an alternative discipline for child care providers. It worked FABULOUSLY in previous generations (second only to a spanking) but Lord forbid we do anything but "guide" the child at two bucks an hour.

These kids aren't getting better behaved as time goes on. As we strip away every meaningful discipline from providers you are going to see reactions like Mac60's. What she is REALLY saying is that she's given NOTHING that really works that isn't so costly and time consuming that the fees for the child do not come CLOSE to managing it.

Mac60: I understood what you were saying and I don't believe you meant for a week on a blanket all day long. I think what you were saying is that the consequence can't be metered out over three minutes and have it work... that the kid needs to be excluded from what he is abusing... and it needs to be over a few days so each time he is excuded from that activitiy he sees that the gig he had before was a heckofalot better than the gig on the blanket.

So, Nan...I find it interesting that this is what you state here, but your policies, that are posted on your website seem completely opposite.

This is what you say in your policies:

. When children have escalating behavior we use “proximity control” or physically close supervision until the child exhibits the behaviors we seek for normal group activity. ( I would consider this shadowing)

We rely on the other children to show children with unwanted behavior what behavior we expect and promote. If a child persists with unacceptable behavior we “team” them up with the child in the day care who is able to show them the proper way to conduct themselves. When children with behavior issues are surrounded by balanced and stable children they will adjust quickly to the conduct of the rest of the group. We encourage the older children to model kind and co-operative behavior and to mentor the younger children who need help. Works like a charm. (I would consider this NOT being excluded or "confined" but remaining with the group to learn appropriate group behavior)

So, I am curious as to which philosophy you actually apply with your children?

[Angelwings36]

If I had a child breaking my personal stuff or the daycare toys and equipment on a regular basis you can bet your bottom dollar that he would be kept away from all such things until he learned to respect the property around him. Would I seclude him to a blanket off in the corner? Hmmm... possibly. Or he would go in a gated area with non breakable objects. Same thing right?

Honestly I don't tolerate destructive behaviour though (as there is no real reason for a child to act out this way and think it's ok) and this would be immediate terms for probation. Parent's need to be working with their children at home on their over all behaviour and correcting such behavioural issues especially when they become an issue at daycare. The mom's attitude wouldn't fly with me and I wouldn't keep on a family that would not work with me on a team level. I would term over something like this.

IT'S AN EXPENSIVE BEHAVIOUR ISSUE TOO! Think of all the money lost replacing all the stuff such a child destroys? Would you really make anything off the space in the end?

Just my opinion.

[PitterPatter]

If I had a child breaking my personal stuff or the daycare toys and equipment on a regular basis you can bet your bottom dollar that he would be kept away from all such things until he learned to respect the property around him. Would I seclude him to a blanket off in the corner? Hmmm... possibly. Or he would go in a gated area with non breakable objects. Same thing right?

Honestly I don't tolerate destructive behaviour though (as there is no real reason for a child to act out this way and think it's ok) and this would be immediate terms for probation. Parent's need to be working with their children at home on their over all behaviour and correcting such behavioural issues especially when they become an issue at daycare. The mom's attitude wouldn't fly with me and I wouldn't keep on a family that would not work with me on a team level. I would term over something like this.

IT'S AN EXPENSIVE BEHAVIOUR ISSUE TOO! Think of all the money lost replacing all the stuff such a child destroys? Would you really make anything off the space in the end?

Just my opinion.

He hasn't broken a whole lot. Few toys few personal. Luckily I learned to keep as much as I can away. Sometimes he just gets in a mood I guess. More so when DCM is around. I have noticed 90% of the kids I have worked with think the rules change just because Mom is there.

I have been taking the items away as soon as he misuses it. He has been shocked. When he acts out over my taking a toy away he sits and I tell him when he thinks he cam play nice he may return. When he does get up I remind him again we don't throw or HULK SMASH anything at daycare. He's been better. Maybe it was a phase, maybe he just thought he would see how far he could go. At least he is trying better. I started using a tone of voice to startle him as soon as I think he's going to swing or smash... I yell AAAATTT!!! When he looks I shake my head no and say NO. Worked today. Lets see how tomorrow goes.

Thanks everyone for the help. As always I try a little of everything offered so advise is not wasted. I do thank you all!