Daycare Termination Question

[angelwing]

So this might be long and I apologize but could use some advice. My son has been at the same daycare since he was 10 months old, almost 2 years. We have loved the results we get from her in his manners, education and social skills. At 2 1/2 yo he knew all his upper and lower letters, numbers, shapes and colors. He has started phonics and actually spells out words then tries to spell them out.

However, we've had issues with the DCP where it seems that we are being flexible and there is zero flexibility on her part. First example was when we signed up, it was the same rate for 4 or 5 days. My parents watch DS on Wednesday because the enjoy it. We told her this but that it wouldn't be each week as they take vacation and run a business out of their home and things come up. OK. A bit into it, turns into her deciding that is our "day off". Even if she is closed on a monday and he goes to my parents, we would want to send him the rest of the week and she started insisting no, that was our day off. I guess she ended up booking another child that day, wednesday, which made it difficult to add our son. Instead of arguing about or original agreement we just went with it. We figured the last person we wanted to upset was the person watching our son.

There have been other minor things. However the last thing was potty training. I am pregnant with our second and due in 4 months so we decided to try to potty train. She said to take a 3 day weekend then she'd take over and help out. We had a 2 week time that he would be with her all 5 days so we told her, can we do it this weekend (this was the weekend before last) and then bring him in. Yes. SO we do it, he's doing well and take him monday. TO make a long story short, she starts giving us different stories, tells my husband he only had one accident then tells me wednesday it was multiple accidents. Then says he isn't ready to wait till 4th July weekend, a 3 day weekend. I felt that he was making progress. Not asking to go potty but he'd go #1 and #2 and have 1-2 accidents per day. After going back and forth and having him come home each day in a diaper I finally asked... "I'm sorry, it sounds like you just want us to take him for 3 days, potty train him, then bring him back 100% done." Thinking she'd say no.... she says in an angry voice "yes, that's exactly what I want".

So another long story short, DH and I decided to call around to other places and put up with this till we found another. All DCP's I called said they'd do potty training that way, the way we were doing it and that the schedule was fine. That if we were paying for 5 days, they were our days. We were paying for his spot no matter.

Friday night, after our big u/s (another boy!) we go to pick him up and the DCP starts berating my husband about this and that then says we need to decide if we want to give our 2 week notice on monday.

Right then we decided that someone that angry and unable to work with us, wouldn't be the person to watch our son.

We paid a $175 last week deposit when we signed. We get two weeks vacation at a 1/2 weeks rate (our rate is now $160 per week). We wrote her the notice and left it for her this morning. That we'd use our two weeks vacation for our last two weeks and since that total would be $160 (2 half weeks at $80 each) then teh $175 deposit would cover it and she could keep the $15.

Her termination procedure in your contract states that we need to give 2 weeks notice which we did. BUt she could terminate without any notice or 2 weeks written (DH is considering her comments giving notice since it was pretty threatening, who would take their kids back after that?). It doesn't say you can't use your vacation, we haven't used any.

She called and left me a message today saying we couldn't use the vacation. That the $175 deposit covered next week but we still owe her for this week. What do you guys think?

[Michael]

Welcome to the Daycare.com Forum AngelWing!

[sharlan]

If you signed a contract, you are obligated to honor it. Others may disagree with me, but if you haven't used your vacation, I think you have the right to use your last two weeks as vacation.

IMHO, if you paid for 5 days a week, then she had no right to fill your spot on Weds. You were already paying for that spot.

It sounds like it's time for you to pull your son and move on. You may have called a friend of hers which is causing hostility on her part.

[SilverSabre25]

I think you need to check the exact wording of the contract; if it does not explicitly state that you may not use vacation time for your last two weeks, then I think you are in the right and do not owe her anything. IF, however, there is language saying that you can't use your vacation or that the deposit is just a deposit (i.e. it doesn't specify that it's for your last week of care), or anything like that, then you should probably either discuss things with her or just pay her. It all depends on the wording.

FWIW, my contract specifies that "no vacation time may be used by the daycare family during the last two weeks of care" and that "two full weeks of pay are required even if the child will not be attending care".

[Meyou]

I expect 2 full weeks notice and pay when a family terminates. Deals on vacation weeks apply to families under contract, not those that are leaving.

That being said...she's been making you pay for Wed's and you can't use them? That's totally wrong on her part. I do a bit of dropin care around my fulltime families but they pay for the spots so of course they get to use them whenever they're contracted.

Regarding potty training I expect them to be trained before I take over. They have to wear pullups here until they're dry for 2 weeks straight all day and then pullups at naptime until I decide otherwise. 1 or 2 accidents a day coupled with the fact that your son is not telling anyone he needs to go means he isn't quite ready yet. Children HAVE to be able to verbally express that they need to go. Think about it.....5 or 6 kids....noone saying they have to go plus 1 to 2 accidents a day each. It just isn't managable for one person. It's also unsanitary since each accident contaminates the play area.

Good luck finding a new provider!! Sounds like she wasn't enjoying her job too much.

[Unregistered]

you don't need to pay

I'm so sorry that you are going through this. Be sure to read your contract thoroughly. It sounds like you don't need to pay her and that you can use your 2 weeks vacation coming to you - but even vacations usually have perimeters of notification, etc. As long as everything's in order and the contract isn't clear or doesn't specifically exclude, you shouldn't have to pay.

Her potty training policy is wrong by the usual and customary industry standard - by the time your child will be ready, it will be past the ready point and the kid will be 3.5 - 4 years old probably. All kids going through training have accidents and it's normal to have 1 accident or more per day during that time. It's virtually impossible to fully potty train a child in 3 days until the child is 3.5-4+ years old. It's difficult with in homes because they usually don't have 2 teachers. In a 2 teacher environment, it's much easier because one can deal with the accident while the other stays with the kids. I recommend you search for care where there are 2 teacher classrooms so they can better potty train your child. I believe that daycares are responsible for potty training as well as parents, especially when most kids are there full time. What's most important is that the daycare be willing to work with you and respect your wishes as the child's parents, not take the "my way or the highway" approach.

I think it's so ironic that daycares get SO angry when customers leave. Customers rarely ever leave to find another local daycare because they're happy with their current care. Customers leave because they aren't happy with their current care. You attempted to discuss these issues with her and her true colors came out. I judge daycares by how they handle conflict. Conflict isn't a bad thing, it's inevitable - it's how each of you deals with it that makes or breaks the relationship. Here, her true colors came out and it looks like she was ok as long as she was in control of everything, but as soon as you questioned her, she got defensive. How bad is that when she got angry with you for asking about potty training?! And she starts in on your husband when she finds out you are looking for other care?! What did she expect? She chose to not follow your potty training requests, which obviously she didn't make clear to you prior to your choosing her for care. She chose to charge you for full time and then fill your child's spot on the day off - I think that it's actually reportable. In our state, you pay for the spot and daycares cannot fill it. Of course, she was going to initially tell you that it'd be ok for you to take the kid on Wednesdays, knowing full well she was going to fill it with another child so she'd get even more money.

You're better off going somewhere else. One thing that I judge daycares by is how flexible they are as well - too much flexibility is bad and too strict is bad - it's hard to find the right balance on the issues that are important to you as a parent. You will find it - just don't rule out anything, I can't stress that enough - be sure to get recommendations from your friends, co workers, neighbors.

[GretasLittleFriends]

I agree with Meyou 100% about potty training. Personally I'd much rather change a stinky smelly diaper rather than needing to keep the kids occupied/distracted while trying to sanitize my play area because someone had an accident. Yes I understand accidents happen, but needing to sanitize everything (and potentially wash carpets) 2 times (or more) every day is NOT acceptable to me or the kids in my care.

One thing to look closely at is the vacation wording in your contract. Mine reads:

If you are going to be out for any reason, please let me know at least 24 hours ahead of time. If you are going to be out for vacation, let me know at least four weeks in advance. I will not charge you for two weeks of vacation time. If you take more than two weeks vacation, you will pay whether your child(ren) is here or not. If you notify me less than 24 hours of your child's absence or your child is picked up early without prior arrangement you will be charged for the whole day.

Since I require a 4 week notice of vacation, it would not be allowable to use it during your two week notice. Unless you told me this week you were going on vacation say Aug 1st through the 14th, then the 29th of July you gave me your two week notice. Since you already had your vacation planned then, I would accept it.

My termination procedures read:

The first 10 days are probationary period for the provider, parent and child. This agreement may be terminated at any time during this period. I require a two week paid notice prior to removal of your child (three week notice if more than one child) from daycare. I will provide the parents with two weeks written notice if I am no longer able to care for your child.

I will terminate our child care arrangements immediately for any of the following reasons (but not solely limited to):

• Inability to meet the child's needs without additional staff.

That is just one out of my list of reasons to terminate immediately. Though I could see it being used if I was CONSTANTLY needing to sanitize and trying to watch 6+ other kids, and the parents not working with me.

Providers have these notices and time frames in their contract for a reason. By you giving her a two week notice gives her two weeks heads up about needing to find a new source of income. $160 a week may not seem like much but over a month, that's about 1/2 my mortgage. To lose that without notice and a chance to replace/supplement that income could cause a financial hardship. A lot of us don't just do daycare because we like to play with children, we do it to provide for our own families as well.

[Cat Herder]

"However, we've had issues with the DCP where it seems that we are being flexible and there is zero flexibility on her part."

When we make exceptions for one parent we have to make them for all. It is exhausting and unrealistic in group care.

"First example was when we signed up, it was the same rate for 4 or 5 days."

This is common. Using 4 days takes up a slot for the entire week. The State limits the number of kids we can keep and our bills generally stay the same.

My parents watch DS on Wednesday because the enjoy it. A bit into it, turns into her deciding that is our "day off".... we would want to send him the rest of the week and she started insisting no, that was our day off. I guess she ended up booking another child that day, Wednesday, which made it difficult to add our son. Instead of arguing about or original agreement we just went with it. We figured the last person we wanted to upset was the person watching our son.

If this was included in your most recent signed contract then it is valid. If it was not stated anywhere that he could not attend on Wednesdays the contract would be invalid. If it is invalid, then it is not enforceable. If she filled the slot that you were paying for, that would be unethical.

I felt that he was making progress. Not asking to go potty but he'd go #1 and #2 and have 1-2 accidents per day. After going back and forth and having him come home each day in a diaper I finally asked... "I'm sorry, it sounds like you just want us to take him for 3 days, potty train him, then bring him back 100% done." Thinking she'd say no.... she says in an angry voice "yes, that's exactly what I want".

This is a common misconception. Potty training is a parental responsibility, not the providers. I would not even begin taking him to the potty until he could look me in the eye and Verbally ASK to go to the potty. Until he consistently asked me to go, without accidents in my home, for two weeks he could not wear cloth undergarments in group child care. Expecting a provider to deal with that many accidents each day is an unrealistic expectation in group childcare. Potty training is the Achilles heel of daycare. It is sad so many kids have to be moved from a place they were happy in for something that won't even be relevant next year.

So another long story short, DH and I decided to call around to other places and put up with this till we found another. All DC P's I called said they'd do potty training that way, the way we were doing it and that the schedule was fine. That if we were paying for 5 days, they were our days. We were paying for his spot no matter.

Be careful of providers who make lots of promises to get you in the door.

Friday night, after our big u/s (another boy!) we go to pick him up and the DC starts berating my husband about this and that then says we need to decide if we want to give our 2 week notice on Monday.

Right then we decided that someone that angry and unable to work with us, wouldn't be the person to watch our son.

I have never had a one sided argument in my life. I am willing to bet hers was not either.

We paid a $175 last week deposit when we signed. We get two weeks vacation at a 1/2 weeks rate (our rate is now $160 per week). We wrote her the notice and left it for her this morning. That we'd use our two weeks vacation for our last two weeks and since that total would be $160 (2 half weeks at $80 each) then the $175 deposit would cover it and she could keep the $15.

Vacation time is a courtesy given in hopes of the parents taking their children for some one on one time each year. Few providers offer it. Even fewer parents take it. It does not count as two week termination notice. Sorry.

Her termination procedure in your contract states that we need to give 2 weeks notice which we did. But she could terminate without any notice or 2 weeks written (DH is considering her comments giving notice since it was pretty threatening, who would take their kids back after that?). It doesn't say you can't use your vacation, we haven't used any.

Rationalizing it for your benefit does not make it legal. You know that or you would not be asking, IMHO.

She called and left me a message today saying we couldn't use the vacation. That the $175 deposit covered next week but we still owe her for this week. What do you guys think?

If the most recent contract stated that your child could not attend on Wednesdays then you owe it.

If it did not she needs to cut her losses and learn from it.

I do wish you good luck. I really do. Everything you stated is so common it makes me nuts to hear it is not discussed in the initial interviews. I cover it all before the child is even born, here.

I am also sad to hear a situation that was so great initially had to end because of lack of communication and unreasonable expectations of group child care.

[Cat Herder]

Her potty training policy is wrong by the usual and customary industry standard.

In what State in the US???????????????????

Is this maybe another country??

It is all about infectious disease control within mixed age group settings. I don't know about you but I would not want my kids in a dirty/contaminated environment.

We are talking urine and feces here... With infants on the floor.

If a parent wants a potty training program, they need to go to a center that offers one. Those have appropriately sized toilets and extra providers JUST FOR THAT. Be aware that there is a COST for that as well.

It is unfair to expect small, mixed group, providers who do not offer that service to bend to your will

[emosks]

Sounds like she is not interested in PTing your child. But I'm not either. I require 100% participation at home before we even attempt it here in my daycare.

As far as vacation...you would not be able to use it for your last 2 weeks here either. My contract reads this:

*YOUR VACATION DAYS (DAILY CHILDREN ONLY)
You will not be charged for up to 1 daycare week (contracted weekly days) per family per year, provided you give us at least a 2 week notice. Example: Your children are in care for 3 days a week then you will get 3 days of vacation. In addition to the one contracted week you are allowed an extra contracted week at half price and must be paid to us prior to your vacation . Anything after that will be charged full price to hold your spot. This is based on a contract year, not calendar year. Vacation days do not roll over to the next year. You may not use vacation time for your last two weeks of care with A Place to Grow Child Care.

[angelwing]

Thank you for all of your replies.

First, we did find another DCP and have been extremely happy. Our son started yesterday and didn't have 1 accident all day including when he came home.

Second, regarding some of the questions/comments. Our contract was for 5 days. the reason I mentioned the same price for 4 or 5 is that DS was going for 4 sometimes 5. If it had been we were going for 3 sometimes 4 there would have been a price difference and we would have only been scheduled for 3 and the other 2 not a problem. Our original agreement was we were paying for the whole week with occasional wednesdays not there. She went back on that, we decided to work with her than fight her.

The potty training plan was originally her idea. We start for the weekend then bring him in, she'd take over the rest. She DIDN'T want us to use pull-up, SHE wanted him straight into training pants. SHE was the one who told us how to do it. And she knew he wasn't asking to go, she said that would follow. We followed her lead on this. A few days into it, she started changing her story. He had 1 accident monday and 1 on tuesday and then complained to me he was having multiple accidents. I asked her which and she said the two total counted as multiple. She wanted us to try again the next 3 day weekend which at the time was only 9 days away. My husband and I thought it would be harder on our son to stop, put him back in diapers then start again a week later. We offered a compromise. Let's put in pull-ups, maintain the schedule, and go from there. NO she said. So that's when I asked what she wanted. She wanted him done in three days, and that she pretty much wouldn't do anything. My ONLY problem is the changing of plans. If you tell us you want to do it one way and you'll work with us, and then change it a few days in, that's difficult.

Her termination clause has nothing regarding vacation. I WANT to follow the contract to the tee. I'm not one to just blow off my obligations and what I owe but I don't want to be taken advantage of. I do have to look to see if her vacation part has something about needing X weeks notice as that would be a problem. However the termination part just says two weeks notice paid. I'll pay it if we can't use the vacation, bottom line.

I know potty training is a sore topic and that's why I wanted to work with her... I never gave her the ultimatum on how I wanted it done, I followed her lead from the beginning.

[Cat Herder]

Thank you for all of your replies.

First, we did find another DCP and have been extremely happy. Our son started yesterday and didn't have 1 accident all day including when he came home.

Second, regarding some of the questions/comments. Our contract was for 5 days. the reason I mentioned the same price for 4 or 5 is that DS was going for 4 sometimes 5. If it had been we were going for 3 sometimes 4 there would have been a price difference and we would have only been scheduled for 3 and the other 2 not a problem. Our original agreement was we were paying for the whole week with occasional wednesdays not there. She went back on that, we decided to work with her than fight her.

The potty training plan was originally her idea. We start for the weekend then bring him in, she'd take over the rest. She DIDN'T want us to use pull-up, SHE wanted him straight into training pants. SHE was the one who told us how to do it. And she knew he wasn't asking to go, she said that would follow. We followed her lead on this. A few days into it, she started changing her story. He had 1 accident monday and 1 on tuesday and then complained to me he was having multiple accidents. I asked her which and she said the two total counted as multiple. She wanted us to try again the next 3 day weekend which at the time was only 9 days away. My husband and I thought it would be harder on our son to stop, put him back in diapers then start again a week later. We offered a compromise. Let's put in pull-ups, maintain the schedule, and go from there. NO she said. So that's when I asked what she wanted. She wanted him done in three days, and that she pretty much wouldn't do anything. My ONLY problem is the changing of plans. If you tell us you want to do it one way and you'll work with us, and then change it a few days in, that's difficult.

Her termination clause has nothing regarding vacation. I WANT to follow the contract to the tee. I'm not one to just blow off my obligations and what I owe but I don't want to be taken advantage of. I do have to look to see if her vacation part has something about needing X weeks notice as that would be a problem. However the termination part just says two weeks notice paid. I'll pay it if we can't use the vacation, bottom line.

I know potty training is a sore topic and that's why I wanted to work with her... I never gave her the ultimatum on how I wanted it done, I followed her lead from the beginning.

After this post with more detail I want you to know you sound like someone I would like to have here.

I think you may have just run into an newer/less experienced group provider or one who was used to caring for her own children. Her potty training plan confirms it for me.

I am so glad to hear your son is doing so well. Sending good vibes for a wonderful transiton!!!

[cheerfuldom]

judging just from the way she was approaching potty training, I am thinking she never potty trained a kid before and her expectations and communications were sorely lacking. one accident a day in the first week of training is a great success so I don't know what she is complaining about. As for the contract, read it over and let us know what it says. Annoying as it may be, you might have to pay in full to get out of there and avoid small claims court. you can't take her frustration in one conversation as an official notice of termination and you did accept the Wed. situation by not speaking up so that issue is already done with, totally separate from this one.

[angelwing]

After this post with more detail I want you to know you sound like someone I would like to have here.

I think you may have just run into an newer/less experienced group provider or one who was used to caring for her own children. Her potty training plan confirms it for me.

I am so glad to hear your son is doing so well. Sending good vibes for a wonderful transiton!!!

Thank you. We had another day of no accidents. So he's been accident free for 2 days straight.

[sharlan]

It sounds like this was the right move for your son and your family.