Making A Parent Pay For "Damage"

[Play Care]

I have a policy regarding damages, but in this case I would NOT pursue damages. Why? Because it is legally wrong to shut a day care child in a room as a method of discipline. In my state it is considered abuse. Rather than pursue damages I would be praying to G*d the parent didn't turn me in...
I can't imagine saying to a parent "I shut your child in a room ALONE because they wouldn't listen" and expect them to be okay with it.

And to be honest, as soon as the child starting showing behaviors that were out of the "normal" range, I would have ended the relationship as I am NOT a special needs provider. I simply do not have the resources and would hate to short change a child.

[Unregistered]

I need to clarify. I mentioned "positive discipline" not "positive punishment", there is a series of books on the topic including one aimed at childcare providers: http://www.amazon.com/Positive-Disci...848102&sr=1-12.

Also, the basic definitions of reinforcement VS punishment center around whether or not you want the behavior in question to increase or decrease. Punishment is used to decrease unwanted behavior whereas reinforcement is used to increase desired behavior. From that, time-outs are punishments. Whether they are positive (adding something) or negative (taking away) depends on how they are phrased and used. Requiring the child to take a break to calm down or regroup where they can rejoin activites when they are ready is a useful strategy. Isolating the child in a punitive manner for an arbitrary length of time is less so.

At home? It's hard because the issues we have are different from the ones the provider had. But mainly we use natural or logical consequences and I understand that those aren't always available in a group care setting.

I have more details on the situation which happened. My DD decided (for reasons unknown to anyone which also just don't matter) to dump a container of toys which had just been tidied up. The provider told her to pick them up and she refused. They argued and DD dug her heels in in that very special 3yo way and things escalated. I get it. When a 3yo stands there and with very little emotion just keeps saying "no" no matter what consequence you threaten it is infuriating. At home, I would have removed those toys from circulation which I understand isn't an option in a daycare. I actually have no ideas, because the problem that we are facing is that when she decides to be, she is just completely defiant and we do not know what her currency is to get her to bend.

I would actually be willing to try time-outs and other punishments if they had a hope of working. But they don't. They become a power struggle and my kid has unfortunately figured out that she has control over her bladder/bowls and uses that basically as a weapon to retaliate.

[Unregistered]

I'm wondering the same thing too.... If time outs are so damaging why even give a consequence?? And wouldn't a consequence be considered punishment too?? I can assure you, even my daughter at her worst in the behavior times never chose ANY consequence I gave her ...

The distinction to me is that a consequence has as connection to the behvior. You throw a toy and the toy is taken away are linked. You throw a toy and have to go sit on a chair for 3 minutes are less connected. You act like a crazy person and need to go sit in a quiet spot to calm down? That's a logical progression.

Maybe it's a matter of semantics, but it is important to us. It is also important to other daycare providers.

I actually learned about most of this stuff through the daycare my oldest attended that ran workshops for parents.

[Blackcat31]

I choose to not use time out because I find them to be ineffective.

I don't believe time outs to be effective because I feel that removing a child and making them sit alone in time out while they are feeling angry, frustrated or upset goes DIRECTLY against one of the three primary needs people have.....the need for close secure attachment.

I think that children are basically hardwired to form a secure connection to their caregiver and that secure attachment is so important to their healthy normal development.
Sending a child away from that caregiver while they are feeling the most vulnerable in an essence plays DIRECTLY against that secure attachment we are trying to build with them.

When an angry/frustrated child is sent to time out, the only thing they are feeling besides alienation is anxiety.

What ever a child did to warrant a time out is EXACTLY the time in which they need that caregiver to help them calm down, feel secure and work through whatever frustrated or out of control emotions and feelings they are experiencing.

A child in that position shouldn't be sent to time out so they can sit and figure it out themselves....they don't have the tools or ability in which to do that.

Most children are incapable of doing that and in my personal opinion when we send a child off to time out, we are essentially telling them that we can't handle them and I think children need their caregivers to function as the one in charge and the one who has control of the situation because they look to us as that safe place.

When we (as the one's in charge) tell a child to sit in time out, I believe the message we are sending them is that they now have the capabilities to effect our abilities to stay in charge and be the voice of reason. We are reinforcing to the child that they have some sort of control of the situation as a whole.

I also believe time outs teach children to see themselves as bad. It also promotes others (playmates) to view that child as bad also. They see their friends and playmates being sent to time out and will begin to label their friends as bad.

I don't feel timeouts teach children to manage their emotions.

Time outs are a fantastic way for ME to manage MY emotions and keep them regulated when necessary....standing in the bathroom with the door closed for a few minutes works wonders for me but I already have a secure and stable feeling of who I am so that time out isn't necessary reinforcing anything negative for me other than a few minutes of peace and calmness.

My two cents on time out.

[daycarediva]

What is your daughter diagnosed with that she is going to special needs preschool?

I would terminate the contract, pay the remaining balance (2 weeks is typical) and be done with it.

It's against regs here to close a child in a room at any time for any reason. I would definitely get a licensing visit if a parent reported that.

I only use time out (taking a break here) when a child's behavior is out of control and they need time to throw a fit/scream/cry and regain control of themselves. It's not seen negatively here at all. Even kids who are just starting to lose their cool will now say "I am going to take a break" and put themselves in the quiet corner and relax for a few. The child can chose when to get up and then we talk about it. I am teaching them a skill that will last a lifetime, how to control their behavior. Reminders of desired behavior, positive reinforcement, redirection and communication are key here.

[EntropyControlSpecialist]

I have a policy regarding damages, but in this case I would NOT pursue damages. Why? Because it is legally wrong to shut a day care child in a room as a method of discipline. In my state it is considered abuse. Rather than pursue damages I would be praying to G*d the parent didn't turn me in...
I can't imagine saying to a parent "I shut your child in a room ALONE because they wouldn't listen" and expect them to be okay with it.

And to be honest, as soon as the child starting showing behaviors that were out of the "normal" range, I would have ended the relationship as I am NOT a special needs provider. I simply do not have the resources and would hate to short change a child.

I agree!

[Unregistered]

What is your daughter diagnosed with that she is going to special needs preschool?

She doesn't have an official diagnosis yet. Her behaviors were flagged during the initial screening and they agree that it is a good placement for her. We are suspecting that she is on the spectrum due to an increasing number of issues.

Luckily, I have a friend who an take her this week, so I have some breathing room to figure things out. That leaves me with 6 weeks of care needed and I'll figure something out.

[Sugar Magnolia]

Don't pay a dime. 'Nuff said. Absolutely inappropriate to shut her in a room.

[Crystal]

As provider, I wouldn't expect you to pay, and your child should not have been placed alone in a room for even one minute.

That being said, as a parent, I have to disagree with your "approach" to "discipline".

Your child KNOWS that she has control because she never expereinces any "negative" consequesnces for her behavior. She throws screaming fits and DEMANDS to have her way because you "know her currency" but it leaves the provider very little to work with. I could be wrong, but It also seems as though you are creating a "special need" for her so that her behavior will be acceptable in group care. I have actually had a couple of parents do that in the past here at my program. Their children were FINE here, with me. BUT, at home, not so much. SO, they went to every single place they could find until they got a diagnosis that got them the free, special needs care that they wanted for their children. Their children were perfectly capable of being in group care with typically developing children, the parents simply could not figure out why they didn't behave for THEM, so they gave it a name.

Please, do your child a favor and give her REAL consequences for her behavior. Simply removing a toy that she isn't using correctly while allowing her to continue playing with others lets her know that she is the one in control. Sure, this is effective some time....but if that is ALL you do ALL the time, well, she knows It is truly a real disservice to your child....she needs more firm, clear boundaries.

BTW....I don't say these things lightly. I don't use time out, but I certainly WILL NOT allow a child to tantrum and be out of control on my watch. Your child needs a firm, loving provider who COMMANDS RESPECT, while giving respect back for appropriate behavior.

[daycarediva]

She doesn't have an official diagnosis yet. Her behaviors were flagged during the initial screening and they agree that it is a good placement for her. We are suspecting that she is on the spectrum due to an increasing number of issues.

Luckily, I have a friend who an take her this week, so I have some breathing room to figure things out. That leaves me with 6 weeks of care needed and I'll figure something out.

Suspecting that a child is on the spectrum wouldn't warrant a special needs preschool. Those spaces should be reserved for those who truly need them, imho. ASD is now one of the most overdiagnosed conditions, simply because a child is willful, defiant and has severe behavioral issues does NOT mean that they are special needs or have ASD.

I have a son with ASD and his behavior is impeccable, he has FIRM consequences for intentional misbehavior. He is very smart and fully understands rules, as your dd does, but with your dd, there doesn't seem to be many consequences for not following rules. Hence the out of control behavior.

[daycarediva]

As provider, I wouldn't expect you to pay, and your child should not have been placed alone in a room for even one minute.

That being said, as a parent, I have to disagree with your "approach" to "discipline".

Your child KNOWS that she has control because she never expereinces any "negative" consequesnces for her behavior. She throws screaming fits and DEMANDS to have her way because you "know her currency" but it leaves the provider very little to work with. I could be wrong, but It also seems as though you are creating a "special need" for her so that her behavior will be acceptable in group care. I have actually had a couple of parents do that in the past here at my program. Their children were FINE here, with me. BUT, at home, not so much. SO, they went to every single place they could find until they got a diagnosis that got them the free, special needs care that they wanted for their children. Their children were perfectly capable of being in group care with typically developing children, the parents simply could not figure out why they didn't behave for THEM, so they gave it a name.

Please, do your child a favor and give her REAL consequences for her behavior. Simply removing a toy that she isn't using correctly while allowing her to continue playing with others lets her know that she is the one in control. Sure, this is effective some time....but if that is ALL you do ALL the time, well, she knows It is truly a real disservice to your child....she needs more firm, clear boundaries.

BTW....I don't say these things lightly. I don't use time out, but I certainly WILL NOT allow a child to tantrum and be out of control on my watch. Your child needs a firm, loving provider who COMMANDS RESPECT, while giving respect back for appropriate behavior.

couldn't agree more.

I see more and more out of control children whose parents simply don't have control of the situation and look for a diagnosis to blame their child's behavior on. The CHILD is in control and is fully aware of that situation and takes FULL advantage.

On the other side of this, if your dd IS special needs, ASD, whatever, and you haven't sought an actual diagnosis, and therapies and an appropriate child care situation, I find that terrible. If she is special needs, she is REALLY struggling and what are YOU as a parent doing to help that?

[Cradle2crayons]

Suspecting that a child is on the spectrum wouldn't warrant a special needs preschool. Those spaces should be reserved for those who truly need them, imho. ASD is now one of the most overdiagnosed conditions, simply because a child is willful, defiant and has severe behavioral issues does NOT mean that they are special needs or have ASD.

I have a son with ASD and his behavior is impeccable, he has FIRM consequences for intentional misbehavior. He is very smart and fully understands rules, as your dd does, but with your dd, there doesn't seem to be many consequences for not following rules. Hence the out of control behavior.

Totally agree. My daughter has severe ADHD, sensory processing disorder, oppositional defiance, and conduct disorder. All of those were diagnosed years ago. However, her psychiatrist was awesome and insisted that we immediately begin family counseling and boy did that teach me a lot. She was our first biological child and was sick a lot as a baby. Admittedly, spending a lot of time in the hospital, we spoiled her to the point she had gained control in a lot of areas. We knew it. She knew it. The doc told us then that none of these diagnoses were excuses for any bad behaviors. Now, don't get me wrong, she wasn't a terror or anything. Matter of fact, she didn't really have hardly any bad behavior at all at that point. But she was definitely in control. The worst part was that oh my gosh she was stubborn, it drove me nuts. It was a battle of the wills at my house for a while.

While she's still a strong willed little girl, the psychiatrist saved my sanity. While therapy and counseling did teach me how to better understand her, it clearly defined that there were no excuses and that she had to be held accountable for her actions regardless of her diagnosis. I refuse to make excuses because of a diagnosis. And at 10, she's well aware of that. Therapy also helped her understand herself a lot and that was a huge step. She is a straight a student, scores advanced in all areas of testing, and reads a high school level. There is no Iep or any other special program involved. She does well with her peers.

I agree that just because a child is defiant that doesn't mean they should be immediately placed in a special needs anything. Certainly those resources are hard to find in many areas and should be used for those who really need them. I'm curious as to what "behaviors" qualified the child as well. And was the person doing the assessment actually qualified to determine the difference between a child who may not be receiving determining discipline at home and a child who is in real emotional or psychological trouble.

[Unregistered]

I said before that the preschool is both special needs as well as peer students. She was initially registered as a peer student since it is at our neighborhood school. At her intake assessment (for all students), they flagged her file for followup with more detailed assessments. Right now it's the fastest way to work towards figuring out what's going on.

I also want to say that we do not experience the same behavior at home that the provider reported from daycare. That made it hard to figure out how to help. We also have more tools available to us. Like, I can remove toys from being able to be played with if she refuses to clean them up which I understand doesn't work in a group setting where all the kids want/need to play.

I'm also in Canada where there are hoops to jump through. I can't simple go get a diagnosis. We are playing by the rules and working quickly. It's been 6 months since things started. Visits to the doctor were met with, "It's likely a phase, let's wait and see" since she was just 3. She will be evaluated in September (probably the 1st month since her file has been flagged and she will be in the 1st set of assessments) and we will move from there.

[nannyde]

Don't pay a dime. 'Nuff said. Absolutely inappropriate to shut her in a room.

She wants side by side care Shug. You don't think that should be paid for? The kid is not a special needs child as of now. Just a flagged kid going in prek as a peer to special needs kids. As parent discussed, they are having difficulties at hoe and she sympathizes with the provider. She KNOWS the kid has poor behavior and wants special one to one side by side.

Why shouldn't she put her money behind that want?

[nannyde]

She doesn't have an official diagnosis yet. Her behaviors were flagged during the initial screening and they agree that it is a good placement for her. We are suspecting that she is on the spectrum due to an increasing number of issues.

Luckily, I have a friend who an take her this week, so I have some breathing room to figure things out. That leaves me with 6 weeks of care needed and I'll figure something out.

I wish I could figure out how to get on the “on the spectrum" money wagon. It's the hottest ticket in town. Often it means the kid has terrible behavior but is gifted.

It won't be long before on the spectrum is so expensive that it changes back to just poor behavior.