Sensitive Issue

[KiddieCahoots]

I'll just say straight away that masturbation IS totally normal...

BUT...


masturbation to the point of needing to be seen by a doctor because they've hurt themselves by doing it so much is not normal.

not being able to stop even after being told no repeatedly is not normal.

having no concept of this being something we do privately is not normal. And it's odd that even after mom supposedly teaches her that it's private and not to be done in front of others she still doesn't understand.

If you want to compare this to biting or hitting... I've read so often here that children this age KNOW BETTER... so why doesn't this child KNOW BETTER?!

If you want to say that this situation doesn't necessarily mean she's abused... that's not a daycare providers responsibility to sort out. That's what CPS is for and that's why OP should call them. If a 4 year olds way of self soothing is to repeatedly masturbate, naked, in front of others then the adults in their life have the responsibility of getting them help. CPS is an awesome source of help in situations when it's unclear.

Idk, I guess I'd hate myself if I never called and she really did need that help

(Please don't flame me. I can't bring myself to type the reason why, but I wish the adults in my life had done something to get help when questionable situations like this arose.)

I'm so sorry.

So glad you're here with us.

[NightOwl]

I think the tighter clothes is definitely worth a try but if the bottom has a zipper and snap she has access. Tight or not.

With backwards jammies it would be darn near impossible for her to get around them. In the time it took for her to try it would be caught.

If she isn't being abused and she gets a big break from access she may settle down and expend her energies elsewhere.. anywhere else would be a step in the right direction.

Get her a size five Frozen pair and install per my direction. Help her with undoing and redoing for potty and then give it time. I would talk to mom about NO MORE do it in private. That's not working. Just no access all the time. Jammied at home too would be great.

I know there is a product called unionsuits that MAY come that small. Same concept but turn backwards. May get those without feet.

Heck I would spring for identical Frozen or other cool character jams for the entire crew if that's what it took. The least of my worries is a dunce cap. That's easily solved. The fixation ... not so much

Yes, Union suits. I think these are similar/same thing as thermal underwear. They can be found in one piece and they're made to go under the clothes. So, no embarrassment for dcg. But truly, honestly, if she's not ashamed to throw her legs open and go at it in front of everyone, she will not be ashamed of backwards jammies.

[nannyde]

Unregistered if you want to talk before you do cps call... you can call me. I think a plan in place with some measurable and gradual access would help you see it clearly. With what I know now... I would try a block with cheerfulness and see if she gets calmed down or anxiety ridden... or tranfers the energy.

I can help you get a plan with mon too. She can call or we can three way call.

Just pm me if you want.

Or Cathearder might be willing to run this thru with you. She is truly GIFTED in developing plans and measuring outcomes. She is also the Whisperer of all things abuse related. A talk with her or a three way with us together?

If I had this going on I would be pounding her door down for help.

[Blackcat31]

According to the American Academy of Pediatrics, if your child masturbates constantly or excessively, it may be a sign she's feeling anxious, emotionally overwhelmed, or isn't getting enough attention at home.

If anyone cares to read some research out there by the AAP and other reputable sources, excessive masturbation CAN fall within the normal range of development.

https://www.pediatriccareonline.org/pco/ub/view/Point-of-Care-Quick-Reference/397109/0/Masturbation?amod=aapea&login=true&nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR%3a+No+local+token

◦Masturbation ◾

• Typically begins at around 2 months of age
• Peaks at 4 years of age and again in adolescence

Self-stimulating behaviors, such as head banging, head rolling, rocking, thumb ****ing, and masturbation, as well as habits such as hair pulling and nail biting, are of concern to both parents and pediatricians. Research has suggested that commonalties exist among such behaviors, sometimes classified as stereotypies, and that they represent an interaction of the stage of neuromotor development with environmental influences (eg, restrictive car seats and cribs) and are a homeostatic mechanism that serves to regulate stimulation from the environment.

One of my DCM's is a childrens therapist, specializing in Play Therapy.
She said that a child who has not bonded securely with her parent or has had lots of change in their environment will resort to self stimulating behaviors.

She also said the excessive masturbation that causes her to be raw is due to the pleasure and comfort she once felt from the act before and it no longer being as satisfying as it may have once been for her.

For example this is similar to a drug addict. The high they felt the first time is rarely repeated so the user takes MORE in an attempt to achieve that same sense of satisfaction.

If this child truly has sensory issues and has been diagnosed as needing special services and the parents are not getting those services for her THAT is reason enough to call CPS as that IS a form of neglect.

The masturbation issue and it's increased excessiveness is evident of her need for help. The masturbation is a symptom in and of itself.

I'd call CPS on the fact that the parents aren't seeking the services their child needs.

[nannyde]

Bingo.*

She also said the excessive masturbation that causes her to be raw is due to the pleasure and comfort she once felt from the act before and it no longer being as satisfying as it may have once been for her.*

[BabyMonkeys]

I think that sending the child to the doctor was 100% the right thing to do, however, a doctor might spend 20 minutes with the child, whereas we spend 50+ hours a week with the child. I would not allow a doctor's opinion to outweigh my own on a situation that may require a call to CPS. I'm not saying that a call to CPS is required, only you can make that decision.

[Second Home]

I can see this situation turning bad for the OP very quickly . As we all know most situations where a parent/child is put on probation or is termed does not end well .
I can see the dcp turning around and blaming this whole thing on the OP .

[CedarCreek]

If this child truly has sensory issues and has been diagnosed as needing special services and the parents are not getting those services for her THAT is reason enough to call CPS as that IS a form of neglect.

The masturbation issue and it's increased excessiveness is evident of her need for help. The masturbation is a symptom in and of itself.

I'd call CPS on the fact that the parents aren't seeking the services their child needs.

I completely agree with this! I felt like I was the only one who read that the parents declined help and I was like

Who does that?

[Heidi]

If this child truly has sensory issues and has been diagnosed as needing special services and the parents are not getting those services for her THAT is reason enough to call CPS as that IS a form of neglect.

The whole thing took a different turn for me once I saw this. Now, it's not just an inappropriate public behavior. Now it's a coping mechanism that needs to be addressed. Not getting her help is so completely unfair to her. If she doesn't outgrow this particular behavior, she will most likely have a whole lot of other issues.

First, she'll get termed by OP because OP will have no choice. Then, she'll continue the behavior at other dc's until she goes to school, and probably be termed very quickly. Other dcp's don't have the history and connection with this child. They'll just do and send her on her way.

If she's still doing it when she gets to kindy, it's going to get real bad for her and all of the sudden, the whole world will be swooping down on mom.

She needs to be stopped. Like Nan says, it needs to STOP. Under other circumstances "go do that in private" might be appropriate, but it seems like it's beyond that. She also needs be taught some different coping strategies. We are not therapists, and I resent that now we are supposed to fill that role, too.

If it were me, OP, I'd do some sort of physical block (pants, onesies, Nan's PJ thing..whatever you're comfortable with), and I would tell mom "You need to get her help NOW, or I will have no choice but to term. I don't want to do that, but I will have no choice". If she walks, absolutely call CPS. In the meantime, document and talk to your licenser. This could blow up in your face so badly!

[Hunni Bee]

^^^^

The last few posts.

Now I feel like we're getting on track. It screamed to me "anxious coping mechanism" from the first couple posts from the OP. Not so much sexual abuse, but definitely some huge void in this child's life where she was filling it with this behavior.

Its not ok. Not normal, not helpful, and NOT just because its masturbation, as I said in my other post. Because its public, compulsive and self-harming.

Jeez.

[Blackcat31]

I am the OP. I was too gentle about it at first because I was worried about shaming the child, but I have since stepped it up to a definite no and she still persists. Its been a definite no for at least a week now.(I said no, don't do that all along, but I just wasn't as adamant about it until last week.)
Yesterday when my son saw her doing it and asked me about it was kind of the end of the line for me. I told mom she has to have tight fitting shorts under all of her dresses and it needs to be addressed. Mom feels it is "normal." I love the suggestion of saying "No that's not allowed at daycare," because it doesn't undermine mom but says it is not allowed here under any circumstances. Nannyde has a very good point about other parents being alarmed because I was very upset that it happened in front of my son and I'm the provider. I can only imagine how I would have felt if my son witnessed that while in someone else's care. This child does have sensory issues. That could be playing into this, but either way I truly feel if the adult in charge tells you to stop a behavior, at 4 y.o. you should have enough self control to stop.
I know that its considered normal for a child to explore this region of their body, but this is not a casual let me see what's there. I mean she completely spreads herself. Her parents recently divorced so maybe she is acting out because of that? Idk. Today she came in more appropriate clothing and she only tried it once and it was over the clothes. All I had to do was look at her and she stopped immediately. I'm hoping talking to mom worked. I hate to report it if nothing is going on, but for her sake I don't want to be wrong either. I don't believe she's being abused or I would call in a second, but I will definitely be documenting very carefully for my records and if it continues I will call. Better safe than sorry.

She has been. She qualifies for services, but parents declined them. They do not want anything that makes her appear to be "abnormal." They are very sensitive about that.

OP said it all along.

It sounds like this child is NOT getting the services she needs.

That IS reportable IMHO.

[SilverSabre25]

^^^^

The last few posts.

Now I feel like we're getting on track. It screamed to me "anxious coping mechanism" from the first couple posts from the OP. Not so much sexual abuse, but definitely some huge void in this child's life where she was filling it with this behavior.

Its not ok. Not normal, not helpful, and NOT just because its masturbation, as I said in my other post. Because its public, compulsive and self-harming.

Jeez.

ditto.


and ditto to BC's thing about it being neglect to not get her the therapy she needs.

[Unregistered]

Ok, so here is what I have done so far. I talked with mom. Mom has agreed that although she allows it at home she understands that I cannot allow it at daycare. Period. No exceptions. Mom has agreed to send dcg in restrictive clothing. Before she was being sent in sundresses every day. Dcg struggles with undoing normal clothes which is probably why they were doing sundresses, but I believe what she is sending her in will keep her out of that area for now. If it does not, I will absolutely put one piece thermal underwear under her clothes. I explained to dcg that this behavior is not acceptable at daycare and if it happens again she will be moved to a timeout spot and mom will be called to come and pick her up. For the time being, she is my shadow. Myself or an assistant will have line of sight with her at all times. Mom talked with her at home which must have helped because she has not tried it a single time today and I've been hyper aware. I am contacting my licensing rep to find out at what point they consider this needing to be reported. I also contacted the therapist who worked with her for 2 years before services were declined since she knows this child's exact sensory issues. I have written permission t discuss the child with the therapist. I'm hoping that would cover this. She explained that when a child who is this highly sensory seeking is not being offered therapy it makes perfect sense to her that the child would escalate things to seek more pleasure. Especially because of the added stress a divorce would cause in a 4 y.o.'s world. She worked closely with the family for 2 years and agrees with me that she doesn't believe this is an abuse issue, but a sensory issue that parents have allowed to get out of hand. She also gave me a list of indicators to look for that would typically go along with this if it was abuse. Mom has been looking into preschools to start dcg this fall and I believe she will have another eval when that takes place. Mom was convinced these issues would get better on their own if we gave dcg time. She felt too much therapy wasn't allowing her to be a normal kid, so I'm really hoping that with this next eval mom will see there are more issues than before. I will push strongly for services again at that time. Nannyde, if this situation doesn't improve immediately I will pm you for help in creating a written plan. Since mom has agreed to work with me, I will give it a few days to see how things are going, but if it continues I will have to report and term.

[Heidi]

Ok, so here is what I have done so far. I talked with mom. Mom has agreed that although she allows it at home she understands that I cannot allow it at daycare. Period. No exceptions. Mom has agreed to send dcg in restrictive clothing. Before she was being sent in sundresses every day. Dcg struggles with undoing normal clothes which is probably why they were doing sundresses, but I believe what she is sending her in will keep her out of that area for now. If it does not, I will absolutely put one piece thermal underwear under her clothes. I explained to dcg that this behavior is not acceptable at daycare and if it happens again she will be moved to a timeout spot and mom will be called to come and pick her up. For the time being, she is my shadow. Myself or an assistant will have line of sight with her at all times. Mom talked with her at home which must have helped because she has not tried it a single time today and I've been hyper aware. I am contacting my licensing rep to find out at what point they consider this needing to be reported. I also contacted the therapist who worked with her for 2 years before services were declined since she knows this child's exact sensory issues. I have written permission t discuss the child with the therapist. I'm hoping that would cover this. She explained that when a child who is this highly sensory seeking is not being offered therapy it makes perfect sense to her that the child would escalate things to seek more pleasure. Especially because of the added stress a divorce would cause in a 4 y.o.'s world. She worked closely with the family for 2 years and agrees with me that she doesn't believe this is an abuse issue, but a sensory issue that parents have allowed to get out of hand. She also gave me a list of indicators to look for that would typically go along with this if it was abuse. Mom has been looking into preschools to start dcg this fall and I believe she will have another eval when that takes place. Mom was convinced these issues would get better on their own if we gave dcg time. She felt too much therapy wasn't allowing her to be a normal kid, so I'm really hoping that with this next eval mom will see there are more issues than before. I will push strongly for services again at that time. Nannyde, if this situation doesn't improve immediately I will pm you for help in creating a written plan. Since mom has agreed to work with me, I will give it a few days to see how things are going, but if it continues I will have to report and term.

[hope]

Wow. This dcg is very lucky to have you. It sounds like you really care and It's sad that her parents would let her sensory issues get to this. You seem to have a great plan in place.