ugh! Enrolling older infants is NOT for me...

[playground1]

Sometimes a provider HAS to help them learn that they do NOT need to be held.

If a 9 month old screams bloody murder because she isn't being held but ALL her needs are being met, what then? Just continue holding her?
What about the other kids?

Since you're genuinely interested...

If she's screaming her needs aren't met. Human contact is a need, just like food and diapers. She's lonely or sad and doesn't have anyway to express that or do anything about that except cry. Self-soothing isn't going to solve the problem that she feels lonely, it's going to repress it. I believe we owe it to them to be there for them when the feel that way. On the other hand, I am not an entertainer. I will not carry around a child that's just bored.

I actually would hold her. I work in a group of 15 kids and 3 adults (sometimes 2, but that's rare). We have one sofa and some chairs for us to sit with the kids when they're eating (we eat with them at the table). Otherwise, we're on the ground, with them. I'm a big fan of free play so a lot of times I just sit and observe and usually, there's someone in my lap. They come and go as they feel like it, bring books and toys. I think that us being down there with them gives them a sense of security which lets them go play some distance from us.

We usually don't start before 8 months, but I would have no problem using a sling before that.

Also, licensing allows more than one infant per adult and in order to remain successful financially many providers fill out their ratios and DO have more than one infant in care.

I know, we're allowed 5 by our state, but the European Union suggest that under the age of 18mo, it should be 3 per adult. I know that home care is different and I totally understand it. You do the best job you can.

I KNOW what MY personal beliefs are in regards to infants in child care (I believe NO infant under 12 months should be in care) but that's MY opinion not the licensor's or the parent's...kwim?

Heh, we can agree on that then.

Otherwise what is the point of all of us sharing opinions, methods and comments? I was under the impression that the point of networking with others is so that we can learn new ideas, perspectives and ways of doing things.

Oops, my bad.. I thought you were implying that child care providers are rearing kids... I KNOW I am not.

The job that I do here in Germany is called "Erzieher" which is literally "child raiser". We don't bother too much with letters and flashcards and stuff like that, we focus on social skills and independence. A good erzieher does nothing for the child that he can't do for himself, knows what that is, and will help him to learn how if he can't.

I'm really curious about your experiences too. I think it's funny that we have a lot of the same issues that you do with the parents.

[Heidi]

Since you're genuinely interested...

If she's screaming her needs aren't met. Human contact is a need, just like food and diapers. She's lonely or sad and doesn't have anyway to express that or do anything about that except cry. Self-soothing isn't going to solve the problem that she feels lonely, it's going to repress it. I believe we owe it to them to be there for them when the feel that way. On the other hand, I am not an entertainer. I will not carry around a child that's just bored.

I actually would hold her. I work in a group of 15 kids and 3 adults (sometimes 2, but that's rare). We have one sofa and some chairs for us to sit with the kids when they're eating (we eat with them at the table). Otherwise, we're on the ground, with them. I'm a big fan of free play so a lot of times I just sit and observe and usually, there's someone in my lap. They come and go as they feel like it, bring books and toys. I think that us being down there with them gives them a sense of security which lets them go play some distance from us.

We usually don't start before 8 months, but I would have no problem using a sling before that.



I know, we're allowed 5 by our state, but the European Union suggest that under the age of 18mo, it should be 3 per adult. I know that home care is different and I totally understand it. You do the best job you can.



Heh, we can agree on that then.

The job that I do here in Germany is called "Erzieher" which is literally "child raiser". We don't bother too much with letters and flashcards and stuff like that, we focus on social skills and independence. A good erzieher does nothing for the child that he can't do for himself, knows what that is, and will help him to learn how if he can't.

I was going to say that: I'm German, too, although I've lived here many years.

[Heidi]

I want to add something...sorry...as if my last post wasn't long enough.

When I said she "screams bloody friggin' murder", it's because that's just how she cries. I cannot describe it better than that. It's just her cry. Not because she's in great distress; it's just she only has 2 volumes. Whisper sweet, or BFM! ::

[KiddieCahoots]

Reaching out across "the pond" for us all to learn from each other is wonderful!
Freely throwing around the word neglect, will cause rough seas!

[spinnymarie]

happyfacehappyfacehappyface

Reaching out across "the pond" for us all to learn from each other is wonderful!
Freely throwing around the word neglect, will cause rough seas!

[playground1]

If this is true, Great! However, no one is willing or able to pay me to care for their child one-on-one. The going rate here is $140 per week (and some are much less). I cannot afford to work 50 hours per week for $140.

Nope, it's not true. I have worked as a nanny for different families, but it's not really my thing. I'm already a mom, thanks. I was defining infant as under 10 months or so. I totally get what you're saying and my post was actually not referring to yours. It's this attitude like babies under 1 are brats because they're crying that really gets to me. It's just...unkind. Your post didn't have that feeling at all.

The ones I get early on never need to "CIO", because they are gently taught to sleep on their own from day 1.

Agreed. I'm also a mom to 4 and they all slept in their own beds from the beginning.

My frustration was because this child has not learned that at all. The previous "babysitter" put her in a swing to sleep. A moving swing for a 9 month old child who can stand up. That, in my opinion, is way more dangerous than letting her fuss.

Absolutely.

Because, if someone is paying you a "living wage" to take care of one child, why would the parent even work? He or she would be giving her daycare her entire paycheck.

:: You know how some of these parents are. My first live-in nanny job I was told that I wasn't expected to get up with the baby at night. Guess where his bedroom was. Guess where hers was. They'll do anything to get away from their kids.

I was going to say that: I'm German, too, although I've lived here many years.

Hey, I thought so! Oh, now I want to know everything about you!! How long have you been there? Are you "ausgebildet" here?

[Leigh]

Certainly a screaming child is communicating a need. Sometimes, though, that need is to be held all.day.long. because that is what the parents have trained the child to need. I currently care for a neglected child (foster child) who HATES to be held, because he was rarely held the first 4 months of his life. He cries when he IS held, because "normal" to him is to be sitting in a car seat 24/7. He was trained to be left alone.

It is much less about these care givers complaining about the children and much MORE about them complaining on this board about the parents who choose to put their child in group care, but train them to expect and NEED one-on-one care. It's because these people CARE about these children that they come onto this board to seek advice. They're not seeking for approval to neglect the children, but looking for a way to meet the needs of the specific child AND the rest of the group. I doubt there are many of us that wouldn't LOVE to dote on an infant all day, holding and rocking 8-10 hours a day, but we all know that it isn't realistic.

Self-soothing and cry-it-out are completely different things. I am not a proponent of CIO. I agree that children cry to have needs met, and I think that especially young infants should not be left to cry for prolonged periods. A provider trying to teach an infant to self-soothe is trying to help the child feel secure by training the child to feel safe and secure. I believe that we should never do for a child what a child can do for themselves. I think that self-soothing babies are confident, well-adjusted, and happier babies, and that parents and other caregivers should try to promote this skill.

I could go on all day, but I find it very unfair to label these caregivers as neglectful-they're TRYING to meet the child's needs, but finding these needs too demanding. High-need children sometimes really are just trained to be that way.

[playground1]

It is much less about these care givers complaining about the children and much MORE about them complaining on this board about the parents who choose to put their child in group care, but train them to expect and NEED one-on-one care.

How are parents supposed to know what group care is like unless we tell them?

A provider trying to teach an infant to self-soothe is trying to help the child feel secure by training the child to feel safe and secure.

In my opinion, a child will feel safe and secure when they know that their needs will be met by their caretakers.

[Blackcat31]

How are parents supposed to know what group care is like unless we tell them?

IMHO, it IS the parent's job to do their research.

I had NO idea what anything child care related was or wasn't until I put in the time to research what I needed to know.

However, with that being said... I DO think it is a good thing to educate parents. BUT only if the parents WANT to be educated...kiwm?

Often times, you have parents that do whatever is easiest for them (hold all evening, give in to crying/tantrums etc) because it "fixes" the issue for THEM while on THEIR clock but does NOTHING for the time the child is in care.

Not parents care about what's best for their child but care MORE about what works for them. Children now days seem to spend a majority of their awake hours in the care of the provider.

That whole cycle then leaves a provider who cares for multiple children to "make do" or sometimes have to allow a child to cry.

In my opinion, a child will feel safe and secure when they know that their needs will be met by their caretakers.

I agree...but if the parent doesn't prepare the soil properly NOTHING will grow no matter how much love, time and/or effort I put into it.



Also, on this same subject... if a child is crying to be held (their NEED for socialization or human contact) when does that NEED become a WANT and at what point are parents OR providers suppose to start teaching that child the difference?

[Leigh]

How are parents supposed to know what group care is like unless we tell them?

I can tell you that MANY providers DO tell parents what group care is like, and parents make the choice to ignore advice about it.


In my opinion, a child will feel safe and secure when they know that their needs will be met by their caretakers.

A child who CAN self-soothe is a child who DOES trust that their needs will be met, IMO. Soothing would not be possible without that trust.

I have been absolutely BLESSED with great parents at my childcare. Others have not been so lucky. I have had two families that have not been wonderful to work with.

One had a 9 month old that literally screamed and cried 95% of the day. Their child had been diagnosed with a dairy allergy, and they were feeding her milk based formula. Because they made the choice not to follow their physician's advice, and because they refused to try to help their daughter, I kicked them out. These parents told me to put her on the floor and let her scream (they said this is how they dealt with her at home). I did report them for medical neglect, nothing came of it.

The second family was abusing their children. I reported them five times, and nothing came of that, either (even after a SERIOUS assault that the child substantiated and left a puncture wound on the child). They were termed, as well.

I hear from many providers, however, about children who can't sleep without being held or worn or in a swing. THOSE parents are NOT helping their children. Parents who don't work to encourage independence in the children are NOT helping their children. It is entirely possible to still be close to your child, meet their needs, hold them, rock them to sleep, etc., and still work to teach them that they don't NEED mom to be holding them 24/7 at exactly a 37 degree angle while bouncing up and down on one foot and turning counterclockwise.

[craftymissbeth]

I just want to add to what Leigh mentioned about sleep. My regs say a all infants must sleep in a PNP or crib. If I have to rock a child to sleep or they won't stay asleep if not being rocked, fed, etc. then I have an issue. It is extremely unrealistic to expect me to go in, pick them back up rock them again until they're asleep, then place them back in their bed. Just to do it again over, and over, and over just because they've been trained to depend on an outside source to be able to sleep.

[Blackcat31]

I just want to add to what Leigh mentioned about sleep. My regs say a all infants must sleep in a PNP or crib. If I have to rock a child to sleep or they won't stay asleep if not being rocked, fed, etc. then I have an issue. It is extremely unrealistic to expect me to go in, pick them back up rock them again until they're asleep, then place them back in their bed. Just to do it again over, and over, and over just because they've been trained to depend on an outside source to be able to sleep.

I am also not suppose to allow an infant to sleep ANYWHERE other than a PNP or crib. (Without blankets even)

I can't even allow them to be in a sling, wrap or carrier if they are sleeping.

SEVERELY limits my options for a child that knows nothing different

[coolconfidentme]

Hang on...., I need to get some popcorn.

[Leanna]

Thought I'd put on my helmet and throw my 2 cents in:

1) "Self-soothe" and "cry-it-out" are the same thing. Self-soothe is just a nicer way of saying CIO. I'm not sure how, but somehow someone decided to call it "self-soothe" to make it sound more palatable.

2) Infants do not have the ability to self-soothe! That is why they come with grown-ups to care for them! Learning to regulate ones emotions is a life-long learning experience - a six month old cannot reason, plan, discriminate, etc. They need countless positive, loving experiences to trust and know that we (the grown-ups) will make sure they are fed, diapered, clean, cozy, loved, cuddled, stimulated, kept and physically and emotionally safe. Laying a crying baby in a crib to fend for themselves does not promote these positive feelings.

3) Yes, teaching a baby to sleep on their own is hard work, especially if they "swing sleep" or are driven around in the car at home. However, it can be done without letting a child cry.

4) I never understood why some caregivers are so adamant that they won't rock a child to sleep. I care for six children (infants, toddlers, and preschoolers) and I usually rock at least the youngest one to sleep. I've done this for years and all of them are great sleepers. I will rock them until well past the time they are able to sleep on their own. The one 2yo I have now finally decided to stop rocking at 18 months telling me, "My bed Wee-ANNA!"

5) Baby wearing is a real option! Why do people dismiss it so summarily? It is not uncomfortable and you can wear kids well into toddlerhood! You can hold a baby and still have hands! I love it! It works! (Not just for me either, but for women all over the world )

6) Can/should we add "BFM" to the list of daycare acronyms?

Ok...helmet is secured...ready for the rocks...

[craftymissbeth]

Thought I'd put on my helmet and throw my 2 cents in:

1) "Self-soothe" and "cry-it-out" are the same thing. Self-soothe is just a nicer way of saying CIO. I'm not sure how, but somehow someone decided to call it "self-soothe" to make it sound more palatable.

2) Infants do not have the ability to self-soothe! That is why they come with grown-ups to care for them! Learning to regulate ones emotions is a life-long learning experience - a six month old cannot reason, plan, discriminate, etc. They need countless positive, loving experiences to trust and know that we (the grown-ups) will make sure they are fed, diapered, clean, cozy, loved, cuddled, stimulated, kept and physically and emotionally safe. Laying a crying baby in a crib to fend for themselves does not promote these positive feelings.

3) Yes, teaching a baby to sleep on their own is hard work, especially if they "swing sleep" or are driven around in the car at home. However, it can be done without letting a child cry.

4) I never understood why some caregivers are so adamant that they won't rock a child to sleep. I care for six children (infants, toddlers, and preschoolers) and I usually rock at least the youngest one to sleep. I've done this for years and all of them are great sleepers. I will rock them until well past the time they are able to sleep on their own. The one 2yo I have now finally decided to stop rocking at 18 months telling me, "My bed Wee-ANNA!"

5) Baby wearing is a real option! Why do people dismiss it so summarily? It is not uncomfortable and you can wear kids well into toddlerhood! You can hold a baby and still have hands! I love it! It works! (Not just for me either, but for women all over the world )

6) Can/should we add "BFM" to the list of daycare acronyms?

Ok...helmet is secured...ready for the rocks...

Absolutely no rocks from my direction

Now, when I refer to self soothing, I do not mean I place them in the bed and let them cry. The way I do it is to give them a little time... 5-10 minutes to see if they can work it out on their own. Sometimes they find their hand and **** on it and that's what makes them feel better. Sometimes they settle into a little whine (for lack of a better word). Or they may just keep crying and at that time I'll pat or rub their back, shhhhhing to help them calm down. If that doesn't work, Ill pick them up for a few moments to calm them down and then place them back in their bed.

I do have a 6 mo now, though, whose cry turns into an infuriated scream if I try to rub his back or comfort him. His parents give him a bottle in order to get him to sleep. His dad dropped him off today and said he gave him a bottle, he finished it but still wouldn't sleep so he gave him a bottle full of water to get him to sleep. See how that's an issue? This child will ONLY sleep if he has a bottle in his mouth the entire time. When he wakes up 10 minutes later, he screams because he can't get back to sleep without another bottle.

To add: my version of self soothing is to just give them the opportunity to learn to do it themselves. I don't feel like I'm doing them any favors by jumping in and "solving" the problem right away. If they don't figure it out this time that's fine... I'll help now and try again next time. If that makes sense