Yes, Another Potty Training Question. Sorry!

[Francine]

I have a little guy that turned 3 the beginning of March. I love him dearly, he has a great personality, he CAN BE very sweet, he is smart as a whip but is also one of the most stubborn, bull headed little boys that I have ever had.

He will and has been peeing on the potty for quite some time but will not tell us ever that he has to go. When he is home he does the best when he is commando and his parents take him every 20 minutes, neither of which I am going to do. If he doesn't have a diaper or a pull up on at home he will either ask for one or just poop on the floor. He knows perfectly well how to use the toilet, he has a full vocabulary, he just doesn't want to take the time. It's just a power struggle that frankly I am getting tired of, nothing that we have been doing helps. He knows that he is in control of the situation. There is no doubt in my mind that one day he will just decide that it's time and it will be over and done with. He does go to preschool twice a week, he just started that but I am hoping that being with older kids will help, he is the oldest here.

My question is, what would you do as the daycare provider? The 2 year old that I have just says " I need to go potty" and runs to the bathroom. He does everything by himself other than wipe himself. The three year old will stand there like he doesn't have any idea how to get his pants off, climb onto the potty or redress. All of which he knows how to do and will do but it has to be a big long drawn out power struggle first. How would you handle this stubborn little guy?

[blandino]

I have a little guy that turned 3 the beginning of March. I love him dearly, he has a great personality, he CAN BE very sweet, he is smart as a whip but is also one of the most stubborn, bull headed little boys that I have ever had.

He will and has been peeing on the potty for quite some time but will not tell us ever that he has to go. When he is home he does the best when he is commando and his parents take him every 20 minutes, neither of which I am going to do. If he doesn't have a diaper or a pull up on at home he will either ask for one or just poop on the floor. He knows perfectly well how to use the toilet, he has a full vocabulary, he just doesn't want to take the time. It's just a power struggle that frankly I am getting tired of, nothing that we have been doing helps. He knows that he is in control of the situation. There is no doubt in my mind that one day he will just decide that it's time and it will be over and done with. He does go to preschool twice a week, he just started that but I am hoping that being with older kids will help, he is the oldest here.

My question is, what would you do as the daycare provider? The 2 year old that I have just says " I need to go potty" and runs to the bathroom. He does everything by himself other than wipe himself. The three year old will stand there like he doesn't have any idea how to get his pants off, climb onto the potty or redress. All of which he knows how to do and will do but it has to be a big long drawn out power struggle first. How would you handle this stubborn little guy?

https://www.daycare.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60637

I have a similar problem... Still dealing with it today.

I require a child to wear something (either plastic covers or a pull-up) unt they go two weeks without an accident. I have also made it very clear to this mother that I will not be reminding him to go potty. On Friday she came to get him early (noon-ish) and asked if he had used the potty. I said "well, he was dry every time I checked him - but he hasn't asked to go all day".

I would just make it clear to them that you should not/ cannot be expected to bring him every 20 minutes, and you won't ternate him having accidents all over your house either.

[Francine]

https://www.daycare.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60637

I have a similar problem... Still dealing with it today.

I require a child to wear something (either plastic covers or a pull-up) unt they go two weeks without an accident. I have also made it very clear to this mother that I will not be reminding him to go potty. On Friday she came to get him early (noon-ish) and asked if he had used the potty. I said "well, he was dry every time I checked him - but he hasn't asked to go all day".

I would just make it clear to them that you should not/ cannot be expected to bring him every 20 minutes, and you won't ternate him having accidents all over your house either.

He does wear Pull Ups here, there is no way I would allow him without.

[Willow]

I have a little guy that turned 3 the beginning of March. I love him dearly, he has a great personality, he CAN BE very sweet, he is smart as a whip but is also one of the most stubborn, bull headed little boys that I have ever had.

He will and has been peeing on the potty for quite some time but will not tell us ever that he has to go. When he is home he does the best when he is commando and his parents take him every 20 minutes, neither of which I am going to do. If he doesn't have a diaper or a pull up on at home he will either ask for one or just poop on the floor. He knows perfectly well how to use the toilet, he has a full vocabulary, he just doesn't want to take the time. It's just a power struggle that frankly I am getting tired of, nothing that we have been doing helps. He knows that he is in control of the situation. There is no doubt in my mind that one day he will just decide that it's time and it will be over and done with. He does go to preschool twice a week, he just started that but I am hoping that being with older kids will help, he is the oldest here.

My question is, what would you do as the daycare provider? The 2 year old that I have just says " I need to go potty" and runs to the bathroom. He does everything by himself other than wipe himself. The three year old will stand there like he doesn't have any idea how to get his pants off, climb onto the potty or redress. All of which he knows how to do and will do but it has to be a big long drawn out power struggle first. How would you handle this stubborn little guy?

He's not being stubborn, he simply isn't ready. What you need to do is stop pushing and encourage the parents to back off as well. If both parties continue on this way this *will* turn into a huge power struggle and it could take years for him to finally get the hang of it (if he ever is able to at all!).

It's quite clear that he doesn't have any control at this point and has no concept of the process.

Having language is just part of a child mastering using the toilet. Just because a child can:
a) be sat on the toilet and able to release a random stream
and
b) put together a sentence

doesn't mean they can control their sphincter muscles down below and comprehend why they even should.


Until he starts keeping dry, alerting to having a soiled diaper and asking to use the toilet on his own he should be left alone. If there are no delays he'll sort it out a lot faster on his own than he ever will being pushed which will only add confusion into the mix.

[Holiday Park]

I beleive that a parent/caregiver must take the control and help the child by placing them on the potty if they will use it. Its healthier and more sanitary than making them just eliminate in a diaper all day long.
If you read diaper free before 3, she shares all the research that proves it is NOT true that they need language in order to be anle to use the potty . My son started asking me to take him potty by 12/13 months of age. He has stopped asking but (hes 18months now) so long as I take him every 1-2 hours he will go and still stay dry ! Should I just stck him back in diapers and say sorry little guy you have to poop and pee in a diaper on yourself, instead now? Heck no !! He knows to hold it and knows to release it IN the potty and is willing to do so happily. Plus its more sanitary and easier than changing diapers. I would be doing him w complete disservice by making him go in diapers .
If that is your rule to make them wear diapers up until a certain age , or you are unable or unwilling to take him potty and allow him to stay clean and dry, please twrminate care and tell mom to find someone else who is willing or able to allow him to eliminate where poo and pee SHOULD go, the potty. that is disgusting to make a 3 yr old wear a diaper. I wont even take a child in diapers anymore past 18 months , and because of this child led mentality and people wanting to make their babies&child eliminate in diapers through out infancy and toddlerhood, I am seriously consideringjust doing pre-school when I re open up in the fall, unless the parent of a infant has the same views in regard to starting earlier.

[Holiday Park]

Using a potty is a skill that needs madtering and tjey need our help. When w child eats, or starts to ise w fork you dont say since you can't ask for your food you cant have any . Likeeating, sleeping, and everything else children need help and guidance to learn these skills and yhat includes learning HOW to communicate too.

[blandino]

I beleive that a parent/caregiver must take the control and help the child by placing them on the potty if they will use it. Its healthier and more sanitary than making them just eliminate in a diaper all day long.
If you read diaper free before 3, she shares all the research that proves it is NOT true that they need language in order to be anle to use the potty . My son started asking me to take him potty by 12/13 months of age. He has stopped asking but (hes 18months now) so long as I take him every 1-2 hours he will go and still stay dry ! Should I just stck him back in diapers and say sorry little guy you have to poop and pee in a diaper on yourself, instead now? Heck no !! He knows to hold it and knows to release it IN the potty and is willing to do so happily. Plus its more sanitary and easier than changing diapers. I would be doing him w complete disservice by making him go in diapers .
If that is your rule to make them wear diapers up until a certain age , or you are unable or unwilling to take him potty and allow him to stay clean and dry, please twrminate care and tell mom to find someone else who is willing or able to allow him to eliminate where poo and pee SHOULD go, the potty. that is disgusting to make a 3 yr old wear a diaper. I wont even take a child in diapers anymore past 18 months , and because of this child led mentality and people wanting to make their babies&child eliminate in diapers through out infancy and toddlerhood, I am seriously consideringjust doing pre-school when I re open up in the fall, unless the parent of a infant has the same views in regard to starting earlier.

To each his own - but I feel exactly the opposite. To me, I want a child using the toilet completely independently without my prompting and assistance. I feel like my reminding/bringing/prompting is more training me than the child. I have few kids who would be able to wear underwear if I was bringing them to the toilet every x minutes - but to me part of being potty trained is realizing the need to eliminate and acting upon that sensation.

Like I said to each his own, and I'm sure the DCM of the little boy I mentioned above - would be very very happy with the way you do things - but that just isn't going to happen here. I would have at minimum 5-6 kids that I would be bringing to the toilet, so I literally wouldn't be leaving the bathroom all day.

[blandino]

Using a potty is a skill that needs madtering and tjey need our help. When w child eats, or starts to ise w fork you dont say since you can't ask for your food you cant have any . Likeeating, sleeping, and everything else children need help and guidance to learn these skills and yhat includes learning HOW to communicate too.

Yes, but to me the maturing and developing of the skill of potty training needs to happen at home. Then once they are fully ready to use the toilet, they can begin training at daycare. With multiple kids to care for, I just don't see how ts possible for me to be putting forth that amount of work - while following our program and planning and executing a structured curriculum.

[NeedaVaca]

I beleive that a parent/caregiver must take the control and help the child by placing them on the potty if they will use it. Its healthier and more sanitary than making them just eliminate in a diaper all day long.
If you read diaper free before 3, she shares all the research that proves it is NOT true that they need language in order to be anle to use the potty . My son started asking me to take him potty by 12/13 months of age. He has stopped asking but (hes 18months now) so long as I take him every 1-2 hours he will go and still stay dry ! Should I just stck him back in diapers and say sorry little guy you have to poop and pee in a diaper on yourself, instead now? Heck no !! He knows to hold it and knows to release it IN the potty and is willing to do so happily. Plus its more sanitary and easier than changing diapers. I would be doing him w complete disservice by making him go in diapers .
If that is your rule to make them wear diapers up until a certain age , or you are unable or unwilling to take him potty and allow him to stay clean and dry, please twrminate care and tell mom to find someone else who is willing or able to allow him to eliminate where poo and pee SHOULD go, the potty. that is disgusting to make a 3 yr old wear a diaper. I wont even take a child in diapers anymore past 18 months , and because of this child led mentality and people wanting to make their babies&child eliminate in diapers through out infancy and toddlerhood, I am seriously consideringjust doing pre-school when I re open up in the fall, unless the parent of a infant has the same views in regard to starting earlier.

You don't take kids past 18 months in diapers? Wow! I don't know many kids that are potty trained that young, I'm not saying it can't be done but it's not the norm from what I have seen. Most kids I know are potty trained between ages 2-3.

[Willow]

Using a potty is a skill that needs madtering and tjey need our help. When w child eats, or starts to ise w fork you dont say since you can't ask for your food you cant have any . Likeeating, sleeping, and everything else children need help and guidance to learn these skills and yhat includes learning HOW to communicate too.

Children learn to eat, sleep and eliminate in the womb though.

Those are things we instinctually are born knowing and wanting to do. Those are behaviors necessary for survival and are not things we need to be taught to do.



Eliminating in a specific place to conform to social norms however is not even on the same planet.

Eliminating is not the same thing as eliminating in a specific way (using a toilet, wiping, flushing, able to wash and dry hands)

Eating is not the same thing as eating in a specific way (grasping fork, scooping food, bringing food to mouth, working mouth to accept food, repeating).

Any child can eat and any child can eliminate, as to when they're ready to eat and eliminate a very specific way though? *THAT* is where each child as an individual needs to be considered. Not all children develop as cookie cutter robots who are automatically programed to learn everything the same exact way by the same exact time in life.


Putting due dates on developmental skills doesn't work and will only serve to hinder success.

[Willow]

If that is your rule to make them wear diapers up until a certain age , or you are unable or unwilling to take him potty and allow him to stay clean and dry, please twrminate care and tell mom to find someone else who is willing or able to allow him to eliminate where poo and pee SHOULD go, the potty. that is disgusting to make a 3 yr old wear a diaper. I wont even take a child in diapers anymore past 18 months , and because of this child led mentality and people wanting to make their babies&child eliminate in diapers through out infancy and toddlerhood, I am seriously consideringjust doing pre-school when I re open up in the fall, unless the parent of a infant has the same views in regard to starting earlier.

I'm not sure what you're referencing in your above.

No one is saying you should make a child wear diapers up until a certain age. The only one I've seen put such age requirements on children here is you.


What is far more disgusting than changing a 3 year old's diaper is the mental anguish one can suffer when they are forced to perform functions they are developmentally not able to.



Perhaps offering exclusively preschool when you re-open is a good alternative for you if you think changing a diaper past 18 months old is so repulsive.

[Francine]

I beleive that a parent/caregiver must take the control and help the child by placing them on the potty if they will use it. Its healthier and more sanitary than making them just eliminate in a diaper all day long.
If you read diaper free before 3, she shares all the research that proves it is NOT true that they need language in order to be anle to use the potty . My son started asking me to take him potty by 12/13 months of age. He has stopped asking but (hes 18months now) so long as I take him every 1-2 hours he will go and still stay dry ! Should I just stck him back in diapers and say sorry little guy you have to poop and pee in a diaper on yourself, instead now? Heck no !! He knows to hold it and knows to release it IN the potty and is willing to do so happily. Plus its more sanitary and easier than changing diapers. I would be doing him w complete disservice by making him go in diapers .
If that is your rule to make them wear diapers up until a certain age , or you are unable or unwilling to take him potty and allow him to stay clean and dry, please twrminate care and tell mom to find someone else who is willing or able to allow him to eliminate where poo and pee SHOULD go, the potty. that is disgusting to make a 3 yr old wear a diaper. I wont even take a child in diapers anymore past 18 months , and because of this child led mentality and people wanting to make their babies&child eliminate in diapers through out infancy and toddlerhood, I am seriously consideringjust doing pre-school when I re open up in the fall, unless the parent of a infant has the same views in regard to starting earlier.

It is NOT my rule to make him wear a diaper, I would LOVE him to wear underwear but HE WILL NOT POOP IN THE POTTY! If he doesn't have a pull up on he will poop on the floor. It's not that we are not letting him, he will not. I'm not saying that I'm not willing to take him to the potty, I ask and encourage all day long but I'm not going to set my timer for every 20 minutes. I have 5 other kids to take care of, two of which are infants, I think every 20 minutes is a bit extreme. Yes, until he starts staying dry and clean at my house I do make him wear a pull up because I don't want the other kids playing on the floor where he has peed or pooped. You are lucky that your son will hold it, this little guy won't.

[Francine]

He's not being stubborn, he simply isn't ready. What you need to do is stop pushing and encourage the parents to back off as well. If both parties continue on this way this *will* turn into a huge power struggle and it could take years for him to finally get the hang of it (if he ever is able to at all!).

It's quite clear that he doesn't have any control at this point and has no concept of the process.

Having language is just part of a child mastering using the toilet. Just because a child can:
a) be sat on the toilet and able to release a random stream
and
b) put together a sentence

doesn't mean they can control their sphincter muscles down below and comprehend why they even should.


Until he starts keeping dry, alerting to having a soiled diaper and asking to use the toilet on his own he should be left alone. If there are no delays he'll sort it out a lot faster on his own than he ever will being pushed which will only add confusion into the mix.

This is exactly what I told the parents a year ago but they pushed on, they were bound and determined that he was going to be trained before his little sister was born two months ago. This may not be 100% stubbornness but he is the most strong willed, obstinate child I have ever seen. Not just regarding potty training, about everything! I'm not saying that to be mean, I love him to death but he is a challenge.

You say above that you would leave him alone, so what exactly would you do? Would you just never mention it again and go back to changing his pull up ( they won't start bringing me diapers again) when I change the infants? Would you ask him if he has to go and accept it when he says "NO" or would you not ask? Should I take him to the bathroom when my other little guy goes or only if it's his idea? I am serious, I am really want to know exactly how you would handle it. Thank you!

[Willow]

This is exactly what I told the parents a year ago but they pushed on, they were bound and determined that he was going to be trained before his little sister was born two months ago. This may not be 100% stubbornness but he is the most strong willed, obstinate child I have ever seen. Not just regarding potty training, about everything! I'm not saying that to be mean, I love him to death but he is a challenge.

You say above that you would leave him alone, so what exactly would you do? Would you just never mention it again and go back to changing his pull up ( they won't start bringing me diapers again) when I change the infants? Would you ask him if he has to go and accept it when he says "NO" or would you not ask? Should I take him to the bathroom when my other little guy goes or only if it's his idea? I am serious, I am really want to know exactly how you would handle it. Thank you!

You're not reading as mean so don't worry about that at all


I'll take a wild stab and guess this isn't just a naturally strong willed child. I'd bet he's stubborn because he's used to having control over his environment. His parents are likely either using ineffective parenting techniques or they are just plain too passive. He has been taught if he pushes hard enough they'll cave and he'll get his way. It is sooooo hard to deal with kids like this because when they don't get those same results in daycare they get confused and frustrated and often act out ten fold.

You cannot blame yourself and you cannot blame the kiddo for the mess all that has created. It's not either of yours fault, and sorting out how to handle it is tough. If they were pushing (ineffectively or passively as I'd assume they parent in general) so early at age 2 they more than likely have him all kinds of confused about the whole process (or just plain annoyed by it all).

If he is super oppositional at this point I'd back off completely and not say a word to him about any of it. Don't ask him. Don't bring him with a buddy. Just change him when he needs it and emphasize "all clean! doesn't that feel better?" when you're done.

If you think it's an issue with confusion - sounds gross but create awareness. When he poos have him sit up and check out the result. Don't shame, just mention "oh wow! did you know that was in there? that's a big poo you did! better get it all cleaned up!" If he gets upset about the mess (grossed out) let him know that when he's ready he can try to get his poos in the potty chair and then it won't have to touch him. That you'd be proud of him if he even asked to try but it's no big deal if he's not ready.

**Imho - rewards and charts for a kiddo like this will only further complicate/confuse. They'll use them until they're no longer fun or good enough and then they'll expect you to up the ante. In short they enjoy having control of the whole process and will regress on purpose just to maintain it**

I happy dance while cheering and clapping for success, and we brag to the group if a kiddo wants to share, but that's the only reward I offer.

You need to get him back to a point where he thinks you could care less what he does in his pants. It's got to be on him. He needs to *want* to be clean. He needs to *want* to be a big kid. He needs to *want* to make the adults in his life proud of him. When it's the parents who push the kid to be clean, the parents who push him to be a big kid, the parents who push him to impress them....that kind of pressure usually just nets power struggles of epic proportions.

Let them know what you intend to do and your reasoning behind it. If they don't want to get on board you can plan on things continuing on as they are at which point you'll have to decide am I ok with that or not. Tough cookies can carry on into elementary school and beyond. At some point you may have to tell them they created this mess and you aren't interested in enabling their ineffective methods anymore.

(In the future it wouldn't hurt to add something about this into your parent handbook about this topic. I outline in pretty firm language that pushing kids to toilet train is damaging I won't tolerate it. I think it's detrimental and if I see the effects of it it's a terminable offense. I don't want to be changing 4+ year old's diapers or playing with pull ups and power struggles. That's a surefire way to guarantee those scenarios and I don't condone making my life more difficult in the long run in those ways).

[Francine]

Thank you Willow!