At My Wit's End! This Behavior Has Got to Stop!

[Michael]

I asked about the "sock puppet" thing. I had no idea what that meant. Thanks for answering, now so many other forum comments make sense now that I know what that term means. I'm really not too bright when it comes to the "internet machine". I always have to have my daughter tell me what things mean! She had to teach me how to do the facebook thingie and she got really mad at me for posting on her wall and I had no idea what the heck she was talking about! I am so uncool. Sorry for any confusion about the sock puppet question, that was my bad!

Maybe I should start a Legend of Slang

[judytrickett]

Maybe I should start a Legend of Slang

Good idea.

You better put it in the acronyms too. We'll soon see SP and no one will have any idea what the heck it means.

[Crystal]

Thanks for that Judy....no harm, no foul. Have a great evening.

[Unregistered]

Op.....did you get what you needed? I hope so, sounds like a nightmare. I hope you figure it out and get back some control.

If not, pop in and ask some more questions. Because otherwise nannyde and I can "talk to ourselves" post after post after post.

This turned out very entertaining! Not exactly the direction I was leaning toward, but almost funny when you sit back and just read.

Way back in response to my questions about shoes at outdoor play, screaming, and nap time bullying, you mentioned that if a child won't go somewhere on their own, you'd physically bring them. Sounds simple enough...except some of them are too big for me to physically move. They won't allow me to take them by the hand and direct them (they stick in their heels and pull the opposite direction. If I pick them up, I get kicked in the shins or pinched, and then they're too heavy and having such a fit, that I never make it all the way to the other room while holding them. Even if I do make it to the other room, they immediately RUN back to the room they were in originally and refuse to go back. So when you cannot physically make them because even if you do, they still jump back up and run away, what do you ( or anyone else...all ideas helpful!) suggest in that case?
Wrestling matches with a 5 yr old are NOT pleasant. If I move them back each and every time they get up, they keep it up continually and each time they fight harder and more physically toward us. Because the child fought it tooth and nail each and every time, I ended up leaving a red mark on one child's wrist after taking them by the hand and physically moving them back where they were supposed to be so many times. So I DON'T want that to happen again. The red mark I mean.

Oh, and someone asked what state I'm in. It's Indiana.

[nannyde]

Now, being a daycare provider I took the "sock puppet" comment literally when nannyde spoke of it. You know...someone that controls the conversation of another - like you do when you are the sock puppet hand.

Yes that's what I meant: Like this guy:

http://www.amazon.com/Plush-Silly-Flamingo-Sock-Puppet/dp/B0016LT5GM

[Daycare Mommy]

This turned out very entertaining! Not exactly the direction I was leaning toward, but almost funny when you sit back and just read.

Way back in response to my questions about shoes at outdoor play, screaming, and nap time bullying, you mentioned that if a child won't go somewhere on their own, you'd physically bring them. Sounds simple enough...except some of them are too big for me to physically move. They won't allow me to take them by the hand and direct them (they stick in their heels and pull the opposite direction. If I pick them up, I get kicked in the shins or pinched, and then they're too heavy and having such a fit, that I never make it all the way to the other room while holding them. Even if I do make it to the other room, they immediately RUN back to the room they were in originally and refuse to go back. So when you cannot physically make them because even if you do, they still jump back up and run away, what do you ( or anyone else...all ideas helpful!) suggest in that case?
Wrestling matches with a 5 yr old are NOT pleasant. If I move them back each and every time they get up, they keep it up continually and each time they fight harder and more physically toward us. Because the child fought it tooth and nail each and every time, I ended up leaving a red mark on one child's wrist after taking them by the hand and physically moving them back where they were supposed to be so many times. So I DON'T want that to happen again. The red mark I mean.

Oh, and someone asked what state I'm in. It's Indiana.

Wow. Are they all like that? Did you tell the parents? Honestly if there was an older child misbehaving THAT much that I couldn't do anything with him without harming him in the process, I'd call the parents. If they couldn't straighten him out over the phone, then I'd tell them they have to pick up and seriously consider terming him. I'm really sorry you're going through this. Hopefully some of the other ladies will have some other ideas? GL!

[nannyde]

This turned out very entertaining! Not exactly the direction I was leaning toward, but almost funny when you sit back and just read.

Way back in response to my questions about shoes at outdoor play, screaming, and nap time bullying, you mentioned that if a child won't go somewhere on their own, you'd physically bring them. Sounds simple enough...except some of them are too big for me to physically move. They won't allow me to take them by the hand and direct them (they stick in their heels and pull the opposite direction. If I pick them up, I get kicked in the shins or pinched, and then they're too heavy and having such a fit, that I never make it all the way to the other room while holding them. Even if I do make it to the other room, they immediately RUN back to the room they were in originally and refuse to go back. So when you cannot physically make them because even if you do, they still jump back up and run away, what do you ( or anyone else...all ideas helpful!) suggest in that case?
Wrestling matches with a 5 yr old are NOT pleasant. If I move them back each and every time they get up, they keep it up continually and each time they fight harder and more physically toward us. Because the child fought it tooth and nail each and every time, I ended up leaving a red mark on one child's wrist after taking them by the hand and physically moving them back where they were supposed to be so many times. So I DON'T want that to happen again. The red mark I mean.

Oh, and someone asked what state I'm in. It's Indiana.

Yes this situation becomes a liability for you because you don't have a leader that is leading.

You need to sit down immediately with the Director and tell her that these children are behaving in a way that is dangerous to self, others, and staff. You need to start documenting their dangerous behavior and your actions specifically the verbal directions you have given them and the consequences. You then need to document their reactions to the consequences.

Do it every day and keep a copy of it yourself. Putting this in writing to her puts the responsibility of this directly on her.

She needs to either let these kids go or provide ADDITIONAL staff so that there is a staff member to do one to one with these kids during their violence and refussal to follow directions.

You need to ask IN WRITING for ADDITIONAL methods of giving verbal directions, consequences, and what documentation regarding these that she needs. You need to ask for additional staff so that there is someone available to watch the core group of kids when these kids go off. You also need to put in writing that you are asking HER to come and monitor the room with you and be available to you immediately should a child's behavior escalate to the point where they are a harm to self, others, and staff.

Get the Centers policy on violence and bullying. Look at the policy and see if it addresses what steps will be taken should a kid not follow the policy. If there are actions to be taken and they have not taken them point this out in your letter to her.

If you have already tried involving the director and she is not willing to take action then you have a decision to make. That is whether to turn this situation into the State and request involvement or to ask to be switched to another area of the day care or quit.

Staying in this situation really puts you at risk. While you are trying to defend yourself, defend the children, and exact very low level consequences like time out these kids are escalating. You really are to the point where you can't physically do anything with them and you have no leadership coming and taking care of what the room staff can't do... so you must walk away from this.

You have tried all the basic "developmentally appropriate" techniques available and of course they are useless in this situation. Those kids are showing you clearly that time out, talking eye level with them, taking away privledges etc. mean absolutely nothing AND the fact is that they don't really have to do the lowest level consequence in child discipline... time out. Three minutes on a chair for throwing a chair is REDICULOUS. It does nothing at all to phase the child who wants to hurl chairs.

These are the type of kids who the only time they are happy is when they have hyper, frentic, extreme stimulation to their brains OR an adult is providing intensive NEW.. high level.. activities that require intensive adult management or toys that DO stuff and provide high level of entertainment with little effort on the part of the kids. When their brains are set to THAT to be happy they go ballistic in a calm, self entertainment, free play, make do with what YOU have in the room toys while adults supervise you doing that.

I'm sorry you have to be a part of this. It's becoming so much more prevalent in this society. We have kids who have horrible diets, watch a lot of tv with a lot of that being violent cartoons, play violent video games, have no "leader" in their home so the adult allows them to engage in the violent entertainment and violence towards the other people and belongings of the home. They have a world where every day they have no limits but have nearly ALL of their hours of the day filled with a world that is not healthy for them. Them being at your Center is not healthy for them because you have no leader either.

[MarinaVanessa]

Wrestling matches with a 5 yr old are NOT pleasant.

No it's not. If it's the same child and they fight you tooth and nail and nothing seems to work because the child just refuses to listen I would immediatelly call the parent and have a meeting with them and the child to discuss them. Keep a log of all the times during the day that you have to struggle with this child and ask the parents what they think you should do when the child acts this way. Then you discuss with them what you think you should do and don't be afraid to dicuss termination if the problem isn't corrected within a reasonable amount of time. You can tell the child that if he chooses to behave this way he may not be allowed to play with your toys or stay at your house anymore.

After you talk to the family any time that the child acts out call the parent at work and discuss it with them and have them talk to the child on the phone or have them pick their child up. If the parent doesn't have a sense of urgency to correct this matter quickly they will once you start calling them 3-7 times a day at work and they are forced to pick their child up. I only do this with kids that just really don't want to behave and are old enough to know better. They need to learn that in the real world you have to follow rules and if you don't there are consequences.

Just a thought in case you get to your wits end.

[momma2girls]

No it's not. If it's the same child and they fight you tooth and nail and nothing seems to work because the child just refuses to listen I would immediatelly call the parent and have a meeting with them and the child to discuss them. Keep a log of all the times during the day that you have to struggle with this child and ask the parents what they think you should do when the child acts this way. Then you discuss with them what you think you should do and don't be afraid to dicuss termination if the problem isn't corrected within a reasonable amount of time. You can tell the child that if he chooses to behave this way he may not be allowed to play with your toys or stay at your house anymore.

After you talk to the family any time that the child acts out call the parent at work and discuss it with them and have them talk to the child on the phone or have them pick their child up. If the parent doesn't have a sense of urgency to correct this matter quickly they will once you start calling them 3-7 times a day at work and they are forced to pick their child up. I only do this with kids that just really don't want to behave and are old enough to know better. They need to learn that in the real world you have to follow rules and if you don't there are consequences.

Just a thought in case you get to your wits end.

I agree, if you have done everything, and the behavior hasn't gotten any better, you need to start calling the parents to pic up. They need to talk to the child, if this doesn't help, I would definately terminate!! It is definately worth you getting hurt, others children, or your own children!! No amt. of money is worth that!!!!

[nannyde]

I agree, if you have done everything, and the behavior hasn't gotten any better, you need to start calling the parents to pic up. They need to talk to the child, if this doesn't help, I would definately terminate!! It is definately worth you getting hurt, others children, or your own children!! No amt. of money is worth that!!!!

She's in a Center. This is one of the big problems here. You have adults being expected to care for kids that are acting like crazed wild animals and the only option they really have is to quit their jobs.

She doesn't have the power to terminate.

[momma2girls]

She's in a Center. This is one of the big problems here. You have adults being expected to care for kids that are acting like crazed wild animals and the only option they really have is to quit their jobs.

She doesn't have the power to terminate.

THis would ****!! DO the owners know about this? DO the owners not care, do they not take care of this child at all? I wonder if they are writing up incident reports each time a child hits, bites, etc..?
This is crazy!!!

[Crystal]

If it is as bad as described, and all viable options of discipline have been exhausted, I would quit. NO WAY IN ---- I would work under such stressful conditions every day. There ARE other jobs in ECE out there. Start looking.

[MarinaVanessa]

She's in a Center. This is one of the big problems here. You have adults being expected to care for kids that are acting like crazed wild animals and the only option they really have is to quit their jobs.

And this is one of the reasons why I decided early on not to place my daughter in a center. All of the ones I have seen in my area all have children running around and screaming and I do not want my daughter to come home and act that way.

I have had better experiences when I go to the gym and leave her in the playroom with the gym staff. At least those girls will call the parents on the intercom if their child gets out of line and they are expected to listen and behave.

[judytrickett]

And this is one of the reasons why I decided early on not to place my daughter in a center. All of the ones I have seen in my area all have children running around and screaming and I do not want my daughter to come home and act that way.

.

Very true. Lots of daycare workers will tell you that what you say is true.

One of my best friends was an ECE and worked in a centre before her kids were born. When her mat leave was up she told me there was no way in hell she would ever put her kids in a centre for the reasons you state above.

[Unregistered]

She's in a Center. This is one of the big problems here. You have adults being expected to care for kids that are acting like crazed wild animals and the only option they really have is to quit their jobs.

She doesn't have the power to terminate.

Actually, I'm not at a center. I'm an assistant at a large home daycare (allowed to have up to 16 children). The owner and I work together with the children and their discipline, activities, etc.